Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 2: Welcome to The Business Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, John Horsley. Today, I have the great pleasure of being joined by Andrea Sexton, who's CEO of Ledger Bennett, a Havas company. Hi, Andrea. Welcome to the show today.
Speaker 3: Hi, John. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Um, before we kinda get into, you know, the detail, as it were, or the questions, it'd be really great to understand a little bit about your journey and what drew you into the world of marketing, especially B2B marketing.
Speaker 3: Uh, gosh, that's going back a little way. Um, but I, I originally trained as a sound engineer, believe it or not, and, um, I fell into marketing completely by accident, but I think, um, the, the mix of kind of art and science, for want of a less trite term, um, is what attracted me, same as it did for, for the career that I actually trained in. Um, I fell into it through a, a route through sales, which I think is not uncommon for other people, so I was, uh, I think B2B marketing specifically felt really comfortable to me because it's a quite a sales-led environment. So having come into marketing through, through sales and understanding the world of sales, that made a lot of sense. Marketing, of course, is all about human behaviors, um, and, uh, I've always found that fascinating.
Speaker 2: Back in the day, it used to be called sales and marketing, and you have a sales and marketing director, right?
Speaker 3: Indeed. I mean, we, I mean, s- marketing in B2B was actually more, more sales enablement back in the day, but, um, thankfully we've moved away from that world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. So you've spent your career inside B2B marketing agencies. You focused heavily on demand generation, uh, pipeline, revenue growth. When you look at the industry today, do you think companies are getting better at connecting marketing activities directly to revenue outcomes?
Speaker 3: Um, no.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: I think we've got better in the last decade, obviously, um, because we, uh, have technology now. There's, you know, we, we're, we're measurable to measure a, a lot of what we do, which for those of us that remember what it was like before when we couldn't measure a lot of what we did, and we were, you know, the, the, the coloring-in department, uh, we've come an awful long way. So, um, I don't want to be too flippant and say no, um, a, a, a flat no. But it... We are only measuring what we can see in the funnel, and that's a real problem, uh, in B2B right now, I think, and, and it's where there hu- there's huge opportunity as well. So we're only looking at the bottom 40% of the funnel that we can measure, and there's an awful lot of navel-gazing going on in terms of what we measure. We're going round in circles, really, um, help- You know, brands are, are trying to differentiate, or they're just playing with very fine margins, um, in that 40%. And I think measuring revenue and attributing revenue is obviously important to, to, to a marketing activity. But I think in B2B, we need to move away from justifying our existence, and we need to start think about, thinking about how much we balance filling the funnel with measuring the funnel. Um, and that 60%, um, of, of the fun- of the journey that we're, we feel like we're not in control of in B2B right now is, is the biggest opportunity out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's making me think of the, uh, 95/5 rule-
Speaker 3: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... to a certain extent, and, you know, if only 5%, and I frankly believe less than that are in market at any point in time-
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... then, you know, and, and we very much moved to performance marketing within our industry over the last 10 years.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh, and there's a lot of pressure on CMOs as well in terms of bringing in short-term revenue.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh, does brand get neglected, or is there a swing back to the importance of building brand now?
Speaker 3: Well, there's a, uh, there's, there's a groundswell, I think. I'm not sure if this is quite a swing yet, but there's certainly a groundswell around brand. The, the conversation's really interesting. I think you've got B2C marketers coming into B2B worlds that have experience in brand, and they're realizing it's actually very different. Um, and you need to approach things differently. The complexities of buying groups, um, is, uh, and, and hidden buyers within those groups and the, the breadths and depths of those buying groups, um, let alone the lens of, um, o- of the-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 3: ... the sales cycle and the marketing cycle is huge. And so B2C marketers bringing B2B, uh, B, B-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 3: ... brand experience, sorry, into B2B is all well and good, and it's great, and we do need that, that input. But we need B2B marketers to step up into, well, what does brand really look like for us and for our discipline? Um, we've got really excited about, as I say, that performance marketing piece and that 40% of the, the funnel, demand funnel that we can measure. But that, o- that other 60% is, is not a case of, as it is in, um, in B2C, is not a case of let's get as much budget as we can. Go and spend it on some really big, um, ad formats that are going to, um, get huge reach. Brand in B2B is still very much a- about being very targeted and making sure that you get in front of your audience at the right point in time before you know who they are, before you know that the buying group has even formed. Um, because what's happening is when you don't really target that, um, uh, uh, the, the top 60% or the first 60% of the journey, then your, your deals are being won and lost without you even getting a seat at the table, and I think that's the big risk that B2B brands are not really talking about, and the thing that they need to be able to break down in order to make a business case for more, more budget to spend in, in the brand space.
Speaker 2: Sure. We've always had the, uh, the scenario, I guess, of, um, user, chooser, investor, et cetera, and the, the buying committee is ever-expanding. It's, you know, as, as we know.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, could be 13, even up to 20 people involved in that process nowadays.
Speaker 3: Terrifying, isn't it?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. So w- In terms of that, strategy needs to shift, right? So, you know, people, certainly over the last 10 years, have been focused on the buyer, uh, or other individuals, rather than thinking about how we can address the entire committee. What would your approach to that look like?
Speaker 3: Um, I, I think understanding, um, how buying committees form in your industry sector, understanding what kind of information they need, um, and, and what gives them that brand preference, brand recall, um, what makes you memorable for the things that you want to be known for. Um, and you can make those things super targeted. It's not about a big ad format or lots of big ad formats. It's not about replicating what brand looks like in B2C. It's very much about us understanding where those buyers get their information, um, hidden buyers and, and potential blockers as much as influencers because we know that well over 80% of, um, of vendors are selected at the... They're selected at the, the point of, of sale and the point of the bid succeeding. They were already known to the vast majority of the buying group before the buying group even formed or as the buying group was forming. And I think that's the thing that we're missing. If we focus just on performance and demand gen, which is still as important as ever, but if we don't, if we only focus there, we miss those opportunities at the moment when the buying group forms. And then the, the, the, the big risks there are that, you know, you become... You either don't get an invitation to the, to, to the party at all, or if you do, you're a late addition, so therefore you're not preferred. That emotional, um, attachment to the, the preferred vendors that are invited to pitch and invited to set to bid, that's already happened at the point that the buying group forms and making sure that you're present, that you're findable and that you're arresting when they find you, and that they can understand what you stand for and what you do is, is really important. But you can do that in a targeted way, for sure.
Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah, 100%. I mean, you know, they, they got a stat, obviously, that 80% of the customer journey's already completed before-
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... they'll visit the vendor site. Okay, I feel that's a, a little bit debatable, but-
Speaker 3: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... there's some, certainly some nuance and truth in that. And now, you know, we're bringing consumer behavior, so such as using, um, AI search, you know, ChatGPT, et cetera, to the table as well. And my understanding is that 95% there or thereabouts are B2B buyers are now using AI to search, uh, and to discover, uh, potential vendors. So a- again, that, that adds another layer of complexity, right?
Speaker 3: It does. Um, but we should embrace it. It's not going anywhere, and it's happening, and it's gathering pace. Um, and I think, uh, brands that are fearful of LLMs, uh, making those comparisons, it's not difficult. You just have to make sure that you take a systematic approach to the whole funnel, um, and know that before any of the buying group lands on your website, they may well have already looked at, uh, how you compare to your competitors based on what an LLM has told them.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 3: Um, and so making sure that you have a systematic approach to the full funnel, and you are looking at how you can be findable and consistent and consistently present, um, for what you do and easy to understand in terms of what you do and what you offer compared to your competitors, to humans and to machines, that's got to be the brief to, to marketing teams, um, and, and to agencies and to the media and ecosystem. That's got to be the brief from CMOs these days.
Speaker 2: Sure. Does that mean that the, uh, strategies that you're employing and your clients are, you know, are putting in place are, are, are shifting at this point in time?
Speaker 3: Um, it's an addition at the moment, I think. It's an addition. It's a, an extra layer of SEO, you know. I mean, obviously there are, there are some announcements coming, I think, around, um, how those LLMs are now starting to move into paid, um, plat paid, um, programs.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 3: So there's some really exciting things happening there. What paid search will look like straight out of LLMs is, um, I think, fascinating because it'll be interesting to see how intent is really very different to how PPC was and, you know, different kinds of search. So I think there's a lot for us to learn. I think they're inc- these things are incremental as we learn them. Um, we work with brands that are thankfully super progressive and happy to experiment, um, which is, which is fun for us. Um, so we're able to test and learn and try these things. I think some of these things are additional layers at the moment as opposed to, let's take stock in terms of planning. What do we not do anymore? What do we... Where's our focus? Um, and, and that's, um, hopefully gonna be a very fun Q4 for all agencies and their clients.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. So you mentioned intent. There's numerous technologies out there that help you measure, you know, intent or, or s- or signals, et cetera. Uh, do you employ those within the demand generation campaigns that you do? How reliable do you find those signals? Um, and, you know, are you perhaps seeking and looking for other ways of being able to maybe develop your own tech? Perhaps it's AI-driven to, to enhance the performance of your campaigns.
Speaker 3: Uh, I'm, um... Obviously we're, we're part of the Havas network, and, um, we have our converged platform. Um, and we have a B2B version of that that's just powered by LinkedIn data, which is fantastic. That's as proprietary as I think we ever want to get. I feel quite strongly that the MarTech industry within, or the MarTech stream within our industry, um, they are the experts and, um, I would rather us be able to go out to the market and look at who is best and who is providing the best kind of level of data in each space that we can recommend for our clients to, to incorporate into their tech stack. But yes, we absolutely do, uh, recommend and we, we work with, um, data partners and, uh, tech partners, uh, focused on intent data. I think if- It's never, uh, as clear-cut as we'd like it to be. It's never as, um, as true as we'd like it to be. But all the, like, all of these things, they're indicators, and they're to be looked at in context of all of the other data points that we have.
Speaker 2: A lot of organizations still think about demand generation as a series of campaigns rather than a, an always-on activity. Uh, do you think companies need to start thinking more about demand infrastructure rather than demand campaigns?
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, I think we at Ledger Bennett were talking about, uh, stopping quarterly campaigns, as we called them then. Uh, we talked about let's stop doing quarterly campaigns. We said this 12, 13 years ago, and we were saying move to an always-on model. I think a lot of clients have, um, some form of always-on, but it's probably outdated, and it's not fit for purpose in the new world of, as I say, being applicable for both humans and machines. So I think that's where it needs a complete refresh. But we always advocate for having a layer of always-on and then those great moments. Um, you know, you need those moments and those spikes, but you can't have just spikes because what happens then is when buying groups form and they are in market, you're not findable because you have to be consistently findable, um, and, uh, and, and exciting when people land and find you and clear about what you stand for, um, all of the time. And if you are just doing campaigns, you are without doubt missing buying groups forming, missing deals, and, and missing a seat at the table.
Speaker 2: Yeah. What components do you think companies need to start thinking about and putting in place to, to achieve that?
Speaker 3: Um, I think we have such a great ability now to really understand our audience, but I think what a lot of brands are still doing, as I said, is looking at what they can see within the funnel as opposed to the indicators of what they can't see and, and the, the part of their TAM that is not in market right now. So I think understanding where those buyers typ- typically find information early on in, um, in the buying journey stage, which obviously is changing, um, and, you know, AI and LLMs are adding, um, a layer into that. And understanding where they find that information, where they hang out, where, what peers they ask, where they have discussions with peers about, "Hey, who, who's the best that you recommend for this? Did you have a great experience with this brand or that brand?" Making sure you're engaged in that conversation is absolutely critical, um, that you're present, that you're, you're responsive, that you can engage with your cust- and encourage your customers, your employees, creators to, um, really get involved in that conversation, be advocates for you. Those are the things you can do at the top of the funnel that allow you to, um, they give you the, the, um, they afford you the, the, um, the luxury of being able to make sure that you do get an invitation when that buying group is ready to, to go to market.
Speaker 2: She... I'm, I'm just thinking about content at this point in time. So do you think companies spend too much time creating content that they're gonna keep on their site and then not enough time thinking about actually where's the buyer, how I'm g- gonna atomize this, and where I'm gonna distribute it so the correct individual's coming into contact with it? And also, you know, we're obviously moving to the LLM, um, search, as it were. Uh, so it's optimized to be discovered by, um, the AI engines.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it's understanding where the right kind of message and content sits and understanding where paid versus owned versus earned, where you make sure that you're saying the right thing at the right time in the right format in the right way and on the right surface. Um, it sounds like a huge job, but it's not. But it is one that needs to be done, particularly now that you're being searched by LLMs, um, and not just humans. So I think it's one of those, um, things that a lot of clients now is, are asking to sit down with us, run a workshop, and go through, "Okay, how is our content fit for purpose on each of these surfaces?" And if we've got a piece of proprietary research which is fascinating to a key demographic in our, in our buying groups and, or an industry sector within our, um, our market and our audience, um, where does that sit, and how do we make sure that they see it and they look at it and they engage with it? And we hopefully start a conversation around it because if it just sits on the website and it's sat there waiting to be found-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 3: ... that's not a, a helpful use of, uh, of that piece of content. And I think people are not really thinking. They're thinking about producing content, putting it somewhere, not necessarily worrying about whether it's engaging with people, um, and across the buying group. I think as well, we talked earlier, you mentioned earlier about buying groups being so much bigger now, and I think that's really daunting for people. Um, and everyone's looking at these hidden buyers on the periphery of the group thinking, "How do we, how do we tick those off our list as well?" And our job as B2B marketers is to try and simplify the complex and try and take that buying group and find the golden thread that runs through the vast majority. Create engaging content. Don't just hide it on your website and make it the best-kept secret. Put it out there. Make sure that it's getting in front of people. Don't just wait for them to raise their hand and say they're in market and say, "Okay, here's a great piece of content." Need to get that early on in the conversation so that the buying group sees you as a, a natural choice.
Speaker 2: Mm. Um, yeah, um, so you're working with your clients to help find gaps in the content they've got at different stages of the customer journey. Would that be correct?
Speaker 3: Yeah, um, that among many other things.
Speaker 2: Okay. Um, and how well are your clients equipped for creating the content, or is that a service that you ha- you provide as well to them?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we absolutely provide that service. Um, it's an important one, I think. And I think, you know, we always thought in B2B that it would have to be high production value. It always was. And, you know, spending lots of money on a very high production value piece of content that, um, i- you know, goes out, you do, you do one or two a year. Those days are gone. As consumers, and remember B2B buyers are consumers too, those consumers are, um, you know, used to seeing much more authentic formats when we come to video and various other content pieces as well. And I think for B2B brands to start leveraging that and feel- and bringing those authentic stories to life where they talk about... They get customers and employees talking about where there might have been a bump in the road, and they partner together to find a solution to a problem. That's fascinating stuff. Um, and that's the stuff that, you know, your, your buying audience really wants to know. What are you like to work with as a brand? If you can bring that to life throughout the funnel, um, that's, that's fascinating stuff.
Speaker 2: Is there a move away from the classical process in terms of, you know, we generate X number of MQLs, uh, we put it through a process, lead nurturing, et cetera. We generate some sales qualified leads and from there we're gonna end up with X number of clients.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Funnily enough, I was, um, I was doing a work call recently, and a friend of mine was sat in the other room, um, who knows nothing about what I do. Um, and I came out of the call, she said, um, "What are MQLs, and why don't you like them?"
Speaker 3: Um, and it's not that I don't like MQLs, but I think that very linear model of how people move through journeys and how a buying group moves through, through a journey, I think we've moved... We're, we're already moving far away from that and understanding that it's not a linear journey, and we have to be very adaptable to, um, people coming in and out of buyer journeys at different points in time. Um, intent across an account, um, can vary and can ebb and flow, and we need to be able to monitor that. We need, we need to be able to be mindful of that and engaged. You know, buying journeys can stall for reasons beyond your control, but they can restart again when budgets or internal pressures or reorgs have been, uh, have, have been completed, all those kinds of things. And you need to be ready, and you need to be ever present, and you need to be confident in what you stand for.
Speaker 2: Sure. Totally agree. If somebody's downloading a, you know, top-of-funnel piece of content that's fairly universal and appeals to all, they're not really a lead, are they, at that point in time?
Speaker 3: Absolutely not.
Speaker 2: They're just a, a random individual. That's appealed to them, and that's it. And then if you put them through a process of, in essence, kicking the funnel until some drop out the other end, you're actually doing your best to alienate them as your future customer as opposed to make them feeling adhered and, and, and wanting to, to hear from you. Um, and yes. And somebody who's more likely to convert at future point in time. Certainly, again, looking back at the, you know, the fact that the majority of people are certainly not in market.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that's the, that's the, the, um, the curse of, you know, the MarTech revolution as much as the, the promise of it. It's a bit of the curse as well. It's like I said earlier, we're too obsessed with being able to measure the part of the funnel that we can see, and therefore we're not being truly customer-centric in our approach to content and messaging and being useful. Um, when we think about great thought leadership, it's usually... Great thought lead- examples of thought leadership have very little to do with a brand's products. Um, they're not talking about products. They're not talking about the brand and, and the solutions they provide. They're actually talking about, "How can I be useful to my target audience, um, in the space that I operate in, but how can I be useful and help them do their job better?" If you could do that at the top of the funnel, um, that's when you start to build brand recall, brand preference, um, and then you can start to move them through a journey. Um, and they can, like, self-identify and self-select. They can start to bring other buyers into the journey. Remember, some of those hidden buyers don't really go looking for you. They just have, um, things forwarded to them by other buyers. Making sure your content is, is ready to be, to have some of those, those things done to it and then shared with people that you have, and you have no control over, and you may never actually have them in your MarTech stack. You may never know who those people are until they're sat in a room, or they may never sit in a room. That's okay. Um, just make sure they're considered. And then, um, when you're creating the activity that you're creating, creating the content, the messaging you're creating, thinking about where they might get their information, whether they look for you separately, whether they speak to their peers, um, all of those things are more important than ever. And that is so far away and so far removed from the B2B linear buyer journey that we have been taught all about for the last 15 years.
Speaker 2: Sure. And it... I mean, it's, it's drawn out that way because it's easy for people to understand, and it's, it's ridiculously simplified, of course.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Um, moving on slightly, so we kind of get away from AI.
So, you know, AI is rapidly changing how marketing teams operate, from content generation creation through to targeting and also optimization now to an extent. How do you see AI influencing demand generation perhaps over the next few years?
Speaker 3: I think there's lots of interesting things and, and a lot of it we don't even, can't even conceive yet, I don't think. But I think the idea that we can be hyper-personalized in terms of how we communicate with all of those buyers, and we can do that in a way that's relatively inexpensive, is efficient, we can test and learn quickly. I think the kinds of CMOs and their teams that are really comfortable with that and really happy to, um, to be progressive and be experimental will be the ones that find they get competitive advantage out of AI really quickly. So I think hyper-personalization will be really, really key. I think, uh, being able to understand how and where, uh, LLMs and machines get involved and AI agents get involved in the buying process, they become a buyer effectively within the buying group, um, at different stages and not be afraid of that, but actually embrace it and be excited about it. Um, and seeing where they can add value, but also where their downfalls are and where their shortcomings are. I think that would be really fascinating.
Speaker 2: Yeah. As, as part of that, as marketing becomes more automated, more algorithmic as it were, um, is there a risk that B2B brands start looking and sounding increasingly same, or I'm gonna use the word sameism?
Speaker 3: Oh. Yeah, um, of course. There's a huge risk around that, for sure. Um, and I think where the, the, the brands that will win will be the ones that really understand that balance between human and, and machine, will really understand where AI can provide efficiencies and better outcomes and better value absolutely, but also where the human intervention, the creativity, the ideation, the understanding, connecting the insights that we get from the data and the research that we do to really, um, do that piece of critical thinking that really understands the human behavior far better than AI can. I mean, I can't... I don't have a crystal ball. I can't see so far into the future where AI as we know it today actually can do that. Um, I still feel like it is very much that's a human instinct and it's, and it's instinct not data signals. We've always, I think, been very good, particularly in B2B marketing at balancing the two, and I think that's gonna be the, the, the brands that will win and the agencies that will win will be the ones that continue to really get that delicate balance of, um, of art and science, um, uh, data signals and human instinct balanced in the perfect way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could call that humanization to an extent.
Speaker 3: Ooh, I like it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's better than sameism.
Speaker 2: Well, y- yeah, the, the, I don't know, the idea of-
Speaker 3: The opposite
Speaker 2: ... humanization of technology and, and, and processes and, and the decision-making. We still need people to make the decisions. We still need stories to be told as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Storytelling is, is, um, you know, and bringing some of those things to life, um, is still a very human instinct and, um, I think, I don't think it's going to destroy, um, jobs in marketing. It's not gonna th- take away the need for creativity or ideation-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 3: ... or critical thinking. In fact, it's gonna increase the need for those things. I think what's gonna be fascinating is how we bring entry-level people into our industry and teach them the craft and what good looks like when they don't have to do all of the, uh, grunt work, for want of a better word, uh, that we did when we started our careers. So how do we get them to show, show them what good looks like? And we're gonna be bringing in people who've got skills in critical thinking, um, in i- you know, ideation and creativity. We're gonna be in- people who can look at research and, and look at insights and really, um, boil that down into what's the, the big so what and then build great creative off the back of it. I think-
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: We're gonna be looking for people who do that all day, every day. Um, people are gonna be using different parts of their brains in our, in our industry in the not too distant future more often and for more of their day. We're all gonna be tired, I think.
Speaker 2: Sure. Do, do you think it'd be fair to say looking maybe 20 to, to 30 years back, many technology and also B2B companies kind of look the same. They had the same white papers, same presentations at the end of the day, and found it very hard to differentiate themselves. Um, through the art of storytelling, of, of, of course, that helps. Do you feel that there's a change in B2B at the moment or perhaps there's been a change in more recent years where B2B businesses are feeling less afraid and starting to discover their own identity and develop a brand voice?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think there's been some great examples in the last couple of decades, um, where, you know, Salesforce is a great example of a brand that turned their brand into a career path. Absolutely genius. Um, yes, they threw a lot of money at it as well but, you know, um, the old adage of, of, you know, IBM's great and, and never forgotten tagline of, "No one ever got fired for hiring IBM." Those are things that still, those are brands that still live and breathe really well in B2B, and there's some great examples now of a lot of B2B brands realizing that, that they can catch up with that and they, they can be really innovative in what they do with their brand. Uh, it's not just about talking about what they do and how they do it. It's really understanding why they, they exist and why their audience would be interested in, in them being their partner forever and for, for the long term, um, and would trust them and, you know, how they build that trust. Um, and increasingly that's them, as we know, you know, of course, a, a much larger buying. So it sounds like it's harder, but actually finding that real one thing that says, "Well, so what? Why should my audience buy into me and no one else?" That still counts for an awful lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah. When you look as the next generation of marketing professionals that are entering the industries, what qualities or skills do you think will matter most?
Speaker 3: Um, critical thinking, ideation, um, uh, understanding human behaviors. I think those are the things, and th- that hu- that instinctive understanding of human behaviors and how people respond and, um, and react to, to content campaigns and activity.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: If those are the things that machines can't learn, not today anyway, um, and I think that's the thing that, that humans will always bring to our industry. So I think we'll be looking to train people in very different ways. They'll be there to learn very different skills, um, from us. And I, I'm not sure we're all equipped to do that yet, but we need to get on with it, right ?
Speaker 2: True. Very true. So yeah, individuals, and I'm gonna say unicorns frankly, uh, who are, you know, top, right, so, you know, analytical and creative-
Speaker 3: It's all ruined
Speaker 2: ... I believe are extremely hard to find.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I think we're gonna be using, as I said, very different parts of our brains, um, and gonna be training different parts of our brains, which is really interesting. Um, yeah, uh, maybe not unicorns, maybe just people ... As, as young people come into our industry and they're more native in terms of their use of AI and it's more inherent in what they do, um, then, uh, maybe they'll already be very comfortable in using those parts of their brains and, um, maybe it's more about, uh, experience and training and how they've kind of, uh, operated and learned, um, as, as the, uh, as they've come through life. Maybe it's more about that than it is, um, um, and those inherent skillsets, uh, and attitude than it is about, um, making sure that, you know, um, we've trained them to do those things from day one.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's, that's a fantastic point. A few quick fire questions. So a brand you think i- is doing great marketing at this point in time?
Speaker 3: Um, I think as always, um, I think Salesforce is still doing a great job. They turned, as I say, they turned their... As far as B2B is concerned, they turned their brand into a career path. Uh, they're still doing a great job with that-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 3: ... um, and maintaining that, um, uh, that, that brand, uh, presence.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One marketing buzzword that the industry should retire.
Speaker 3: We should retire?
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 3: Um, MQLs .
Speaker 2: You're the second person that's said that today.
Speaker 2: One technology that will fundamentally reshape marketing over the next five years. I know you're gonna say AI, but anything outside of AI?
Speaker 3: Um, I think, so, uh, yeah, I mean, I think there's some, there's some interesting things where it's not just about AI, but it's about how we give AI those insights. Um, so I think any technology that comes through and can really support, um, with some of those human skillsets that I've just talked about, I think any technology that can help to take what AI gives us and translate and help more people, um, kind of, uh, leverage AI at scale, I think will be really interesting.
Speaker 2: Great. Final question. So if, if somebody, a younger person, is looking to enter the marketing industry today, uh, or perhaps they're at, at the start of their career at the moment, what advice would you give to them around building a, a meaningful and successful career in B2B marketing?
Speaker 3: Um, I think it's always been the, the same. If you have a passion for it, you understand, um, the complexities of B2B. I mean, I always say I love B2B marketing because I work with brands that nobody's ever heard of, but they make the world go round, and they're usually huge, um, brands. And once you recognize the logo and you see them everywhere, um, you kind of realize just how i- it, it built into our lives that they are.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: And I think if you're gonna start b- a career in B2B marketing, you need a passion for that. You need to under- uh, worry about how things work, how you solve problems. Um, but, uh, the advice I would give is if you can think not in silos, but in the end-to-end journey, you think about humans at the end, uh, uh, on the end of the, the content and the messaging and on the end of the reporting and the measurement, think about the humans that exist there and how you communicate with them effectively, then... and keep that as your sort of your, your, your single source of truth, that's where you'll be successful.
Speaker 2: I have. Thanks, Andrea. Wise words. You, you've been a fantastic guest on the show today.
Speaker 3: Pleasure.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thanks for asking me.
Speaker 2: You're welcome.
Speaker 1: This episode of The Business of Marketing-
Speaker 2: Thanks