Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: Welcome to The Business of Marketing. My name's John Horsley, I'm the host of this episode. We are recording live at Cannes Lions, uh, and we're in the beautiful surrounds of the Dept Secret Garden. I have the pleasure of being joined by Michael Scott today, who is Global Chief Revenue Officer at LoopMe. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks, John. It's great to be here. What a fantastic setting and- and a great week in Cannes. It's, uh, it's- it's- it's been really remarkable this week.
Speaker 1: Isn't it just? I mean, these incredible types of people that Cannes brings together, it's so eclectic.
Speaker 2: So eclectic and so invigorating and really inspiring. Every time I come I- I leave with just so many great ideas, new contacts, new relationships, and it really kind of really expands your business mind a bit, so it's great.
Speaker 1: I totally agree. You always get that "in the shower" moment as well.
Speaker 2: You do. Y- y- there is
Speaker 1: ... And it's when you just take that break, it's like, wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, and- and- and it just comes flooding.
Speaker 2: It is good. I just kinda took a moment to step back on Croisette, um, yesterday, and just kinda took it all in for a moment and just looked at, you know, our industry, and I'm just really proud to be a part of it. So yeah.
Speaker 1: Yep, 100%. Um, what would be really good, and I- I normally ask this as kind of a- a starter for 10, what attracted you, in the first instance, to the world of, you know, marketing, media, advertising? What was it that caught your attention and drew you in?
Speaker 2: I was literally talking about this yesterday because, you know, I'm on the media side and always have been on the media side, but what really got me excited about this is what happens in the Palais. It's the creative. And so for the first time ever I went into the Palais and looked at all the creative, and just, as part of the inspiration for the week. Um, I loved communications, I loved the arts, um, and I really enjoyed the people that were m- you know, making a, making a living through that. And so, um, I got f- started in television and, uh, did an internship with an NBC, uh, affiliate in Chicago where I lived, um, and really grew to love just the whole ecosystem. Um, you know, the type of people it brought, type of work that we could do, um, and kind of my role in it.
Speaker 1: Brilliant. What- what an experience. What- what a great starting point.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And now you've gone from TV to CTV, right?
Speaker 2: TV, CTV, uh, and, uh, now mobile, uh, mobile app as well, uh, six months in at- at LoopMe, um, after almost nine years at Samsung Ads in North America.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've- you've obviously been in OTT, uh, CTV for a long period of time. You were at TrueOptics. Um, from there, Samsung Ads as- as you've just referenced, now at LoopMe. What feels harder at this point in time in terms of the- the sales conversation or, yeah, the conversation you're having with clients? How- how has it evolved?
Speaker 2: Um, well, uh, I think very early on in coming from television it was very much just kind of about- about reach and very, as we look back now, kind of simple and very blunt in our measurement and targeting. You know, it's age and gender. Um, and n- now we're able to do such incredible precise targeting and measurement and optimization about that. And with LoopMe, we're able to do it in real time, so our mission is really about helping bring brands into apps, right? Mobile apps. Um, a lot of the mobile app eco- ecosystem is driven by, uh, performance, especially gaming performance, and we think especially with the, uh, advent and, of g- of AI and LLMs and, uh, that you're seeing a decrease in web usage and an increase in app usage, and we think that's a fantastic place to tell that brand's story. So, um, the precision, the ability to measure, um, the ability to optimize. As we get closer and closer to that kind of Holy Grail moment of making Mr. Wanamaker's dream come true of, you know, being able to measure our every d- every penny, those are the things that are exciting. And I think for marketers, there's so much opportunity and there are so many different options about how to do that.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Part of the conversation is just kind of pulling back and trying to make it simple.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, that, I was immediately thinking about that. So I wasn't aware that there's been a- a transition to app use, uh, over the volume o- of web use.
Speaker 2: Well, think about your own, your own, your own usage, right? You've relied on whatever LLM it might be, whether it's, you know, Gemini or Copilot or-
Speaker 1: Sure
Speaker 2: ... Perplexity, Claude.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think as- as users have done that, you used to go into, you know, Google Search and click the link and you go to a website, you go to the next website. All that traffic's gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right? It's all evaporating from a consumer perspective, so where can brands then find that on a mobile device? 'Cause your mobile web is decreasing. And so what we're seeing is a big jump into f- wanting brands to have a brand experience in mobile app.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: The great thing about mobile app and where we really play is it's an immersive brand experience. You can use full screen video, you can use, you know, custom units. You can tell that brand story on the phone in different ways that you've never been able to do and, um, we're really excited and proud about playing that role for the, for the ecosystem.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, that's really exciting. There's a huge amount of innovation going on clearly on your side. Um, do you find that you're often a- a number of steps ahead of the client, or, or do you actually work very closely with your clients to innovate and, and develop products, or perhaps a balance of the two?
Speaker 2: A little bit of both, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think it really depends on what they're trying to accomplish. So we're very tied in with, um, all of our holding co partners. We work very closely with their product teams. We wanna build product with them shoulder to shoulder, um, so that we know we're delivering on behalf of the advertiser. Um, and then we also work very closely with our partners in the ad tech ecosystem, SSPs and DSPs, to make sure that our SDK that is sitting in over th- 300,000 apps-
Speaker 1: Really? Wow
Speaker 2: ... 300,000, yeah, apps, is actually, um, you know, performing for them in the way that they want, um, and, uh, from a very technical perspective. And that all coming together to help brands tell that story on a mobile device and then be able to extend that audience off into CTV as well, so it's really, uh, a very compelling place. But when you think about CTV and you think about mobile, being able to tell a brand story in mobile You have an immediate opportunity to transact, and I can tell you after eight and a half years of Samsung, it's really difficult for consumers to trans- It's nearly impossible to transact on a television in the same way that you can one click deep link into a product page on your mobile device.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and clearly, um, people like me, I'm, I'm sat there watching TV, but I'm dual screening, so that's a huge part of it.
Speaker 2: Are always duel s- dual screen. Um, I think the industry, we still have a ways to go of kind of matching up that, you know, th- that signal and that, that moment, if you will. Um, but I think we're getting, getting closer, yeah.
Speaker 1: Although there's danger there of having that sort of uncanny valley experience. You know, I'm g- getting hit with this ad here and simultaneously the same ad on my phone, so...
Speaker 2: Do you know, I think there's been a, a lot of great work done by, you know, the industry boards, the IAB certainly, um, around educating consumers-
Speaker 1: Okay
Speaker 2: ... ab- about that. A- and the, you know, the value exchange that goes with, um, you know, whether it's free media or whatever it might be, um, in exchange for, you know, targeted advertising. So, um, y- as I was on the publisher side, and obviously now I'm on, on the tech side, um, really didn't experience a lot of that. I mean, we had at Samsung very, very, very few, um, what we call voice of customer input, um, about the ads experience on platform. Um, and so, um, I think consumers are, are a bit, you know, they've leaned into that a bit, and if they don't, there are obviously, you know, subscription only platforms that may work for them, and if that's the choice that they wanna make, and typically you see them kind of ha- a bit of a mix of both, as I'm sure you do in your own personal behavior.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I, I love the idea of value exchange that you've just talked about. Um, and maturity, I guess is, is where we're going in terms of advertising. Um, and yeah, I'm just having a think, and brand as utility I think we're starting to see as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, what's your experience in terms of the clients you work with? Are, are they thinking that way? Are they thinking how could we be a more useful brand? How can we be more of a utility to, to the, the end user, the customer? Uh-
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it-
Speaker 1: Or are they looking, uh, entertainment perhaps as, as a way of creating a value exchange?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, uh, it, I think it's a little bit of, of both, but kinda maybe even starting back at, you know, the pressures that are on brands right now, right? Um, especially public companies to deliver against their quarterly number. Um, there's so much focus right now for CMOs on kind of lower funnel measurement.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: And so you have a lot of investment that's chasing kind of last click. We all know from a ... Y- y- you need to build a brand. A brand is the way that you introduce new customers. It's a way that you, you cultivate the relationship. It's a way that you get them to be able to click to purchase, and if all you're doing is investing in that lower funnel, sooner or later you're gonna burn out of in-market, right? And so you need to keep filling. And so the smart marketers are thinking about it both ways. They're thinking about, "What's my brand health? How am I telling that story? In what context am I telling that story? How am I thinking about the consumer journey, and w- how does my brand really play into that consumer journey?" And that's wh- a lot of where we focus. Yes, we can do lower funnel, we can do the conversions. We want to help get more in market for brands, whether that's, you know, financial services or automobiles or, you know, FMCG, CPG, whatever it might be, we're helping with that brand story to get, you know, more consumers in market.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Why, why d- I, I know there's a shift at this point in time, but why do you feel that there is a shift to, to branding and greater investment into brand marketing?
Speaker 2: I think because what, what we provide, and we're not the sole f- you know, the sole reason, but I'd like to kind of take it from my perspective. What we provide is an ability to quantify that spend, right? So i- if you think about it, um, the CFO comes to the CMO and goes, "Oh, what's this $100 million campaign doing that you just did?" And they're like, "Oh, it did this much in volume purchases or this much in, you know, new subscription," whatever the metric might be that's lower funnel. How do they have that same conversation about the value of their brand? Certainly you have, you know, organizations that are out there that can do, you know, the value of your brand, but those tend to be kind of ephemeral and, and, you know, yes, it can be on your balance sheet, but it's not really talking about kind of your cashflow. And so what we're doing is really helping brands measure your upper funnel, mid-funnel impact, brand lift, brand consideration, um, intent to purchase, and helping that translate tho- that into actually a quantifiable number that then the CMO or the agencies can say, "Yes, this is how our brand spend is affecting our lower funnel. This is how our brand spend is actually driving consumption. This is how it makes it to the bottom line." Instead of looking at it as, as a nice to have and difficult to quantify, we're able to help quantify that impact and make it a must-have.
Speaker 1: Yeah. From the point of view that brand fuels demand.
Speaker 2: 100%.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: 100%.
Speaker 1: It's also making me think, um, okay, you talked about the CFO.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Uh, the CFO is having much more decision-making around marketing and marketing spend. Th- I, I mean, they always have, but-
Speaker 2: As they should
Speaker 1: ... feels like a lot more at this point in time.
Speaker 2: As they should.
Speaker 1: 100%. And the, the pressure obviously on the CMO, right, you know, uh, sh- short window, how much are you gonna bring in, you know, and marketing's gone from, well, its, its transition to obviously revenue marketing-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: .... as, as part of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, over the last 10 years, huge, uh, huge investment in, in such, of course, uh, lower funnel activities, whether it's lead gen if you're a B2B, um, you know, t- the last click-
Speaker 2: Activations and, you know, and-
Speaker 1: ..... et cetera, as, as you're saying.
Speaker 2: And mobile makes it so easy.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Doesn't it?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I have this conversation all the time of, of, you know, several different platforms. It's just you can make that impulse purchase, and that impurse pu- purchase isn't a, you know, isn't a candy bar at a checkout. It's a $200 , 200 pound item.
Speaker 1: So you touched on it at the start as well. You were talking about less traffic obviously going through to sites, and I believe that is what is fueling, um, a groundswell at this point in time in terms of brand marketing, uh, and the LLMs, uh, and people's behavior, obviously searching in your ChatGPTs, you know, etc., etc.- Um, not necessarily going to those sites. The, you know, only way that they're gonna be disc- people are gonna be discovered in there is if they've been putting out content and the right content as well.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: Um, so there's, uh, more of an investment in that. Um, and the... Actually I'm gonna quote something that, that, um, a, a person that we interviewed fairly recently, and he was saying, "You know, brand is the idea that lives in somebody else's head." Yeah? Uh, and what that means-
Speaker 2: The eye of the beholder, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah. And, and we've been focused so much on the 5%, yeah-
Speaker 2: Right
Speaker 1: ... but the 95.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Um, so at the point of shortlisting, if you're there and you're present, you're gonna be on that shortlist for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And it's, I think, you know, m- marketers, and back to this kind of finance conversation, that's, you know, that's a significant investment. And the CFO should be involved in every, both sides of, you know, of the, of the P&L. But helping marketers really ensure that they're telling the full story about the investment and being able to quantify that investment and be able to show that, uh, i- it- it's just so critical to helping the future of, of, of their business and their business success.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree. Do you find, on the client side, that marketers have become more sophisticated in terms of their requests from you, uh, the outcomes that they're looking for, um, the perhaps to a certain degree some of the consultancy that you can provide to them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one thing that I've noticed, a really interesting shift, is how much more data-driven marketers have been, right? Um, and how important it is for them to have really robust first-party data. Um, and it's interesting. Even, even verticals that you wouldn't think would need first-party consumer data like CPG or-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... or, you know, restaurants, fast food, are increasingly turning to app to help them be that, that portal to build that direct data relationship with their consumers. Now that they have that data, they can be smarter, not only about their own planning and buying, but actually their targeting. And so when you see the type of investments let's just say Publicis has made by, you know, $2.2 billion to purchase LiveRamp, it, which is, you know, obviously data identity spine, gets ... It really gets marketers very excited to be able to take and bring their own first party in a privacy compliant way, and I saw this a lot at, at Samsung, um, and be able to start, you know, not only just building insights and campaign insights, but really beginning to value it against their high-value users and how they look at it instead of relying on some third party to help define who an in-market auto is. An in-market auto may be different for Mercedes and BMW and Jaguar and all the rest.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you feel.... Yeah, I mean, I, I believe it has. Um, privacy has driven the need for first-party data. So we've had GDPR come in in the UK. You've got California law, CCPA, in the US. Um, I believe that privacy in the US will probably start becoming a little bit more stringent as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, and at the end of the day, it's individuals who want to you know, want to hear from you, which is very different, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Rather than trying to cast this huge net. Um, have the conversations and dialogue with people who at least have the interest rather than trying to find the interest.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And, and going, just going back to brand building, right? And being able to understand that audience and being able to engage with that audience instead of just shoving messages at them, right? Um, one of the things that we're really proud of is that w- for 14 years we've been building, um, non-identity consumer surveys that sit on, um, on your phone and very quickly be able to understand, you know, brand preference, brand awareness, whether you're in market. Very simple. We do over 300 million a year.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And we have all of that data for 14 years, and it's all sits inside of an AI agent spines. So we have agents that are able to kind of take that data and then help marketers, not only with insights-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: … but also start to really optimize around whatever those ob- those objectives may be. So if you're trying to start and initiate a conversation with consumers and you have a consumer target that doesn't even know your brand, you better be certain that you're really having that conversation and be able to understand who they are, and it really reduces your waste. It reduces your waste across all media.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm gonna assume because the individuals have, have got your survey, you know, on their device, as it were, that they're then verified as well.
Speaker 2: No. Um-
Speaker 1: Okay
Speaker 2: ... it's completely anonymized.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, so, uh, we're able to do that. So it's anonymized. There's no PII exchanged, none of that from a survey perspective. So we're able to, um, you know, through our data science, um... LoopMe was built by mathematicians. It was built by machine learning teams, and it was built kinda from the tech up rather than a value proposition down, right?
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So, um, th- that's why I feel so confident about this, because I can see it work. I mean, I know that when, you know, we're seeing 5X brand lift on any one campaign just through our, our machine learning and our AI, um, that it really helps marketers, whether you're having that conversation, whether you wanna further that conversation with a consumer, when you wanna try and start converting that conversation into purchase, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. What's most important to marketers in terms of what they're looking to measure and why?
Speaker 2: I think it depends on where they are in the stage of their marketing, um, and, and, and what, you know, they're really, you know, doing, whether it's a new product launch, or it may be new features, or it may be, you know, they may have a, a, a motion around winback, um, you know, for consumers. It depends on how they're trying to approach their go to market. Um, but there's one thing that's true: If you're not building brand value, you're going to lose, right? You're not creating some sort of preference in the mind of a consumer, you're going to lose. If you're not creating very cli- uh, uh, like clarity around your brand and your value proposition, you are going to lose, and that's why it's so mission-critical to be able to understand in real time the perception, the intent of consumers. That's where really our, our survey that we power, um, does phenomenally well and really helps marketers
Speaker 1: Uh, what regions do you work with your clients across? Is it global or-
Speaker 2: It is global
Speaker 1: ... is there a focus group in tech hubs?
Speaker 2: I think it's 192 countries these days.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: You know, whatever we've got, yeah. Um, so, um, our business, um, is across 25 offices, uh, around the world. Uh, headquartered in London. Uh, our North American headquarters in, um, in New York. Our, uh, APAC headquarters in Singapore. Um, and, uh, we have very deep, um, technology investment, um, with engineering, uh, across Europe, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So across those markets, there's obviously cultural differences-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... cultural nuances. It'd be great to understand a little bit in terms of what that looks like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, um, in, in terms of kind of brand building, do you think?
Speaker 1: So, no, no, not necessarily brand building, but I'm thinking a DACH region, um, have a, a very different attitude to, to advertising and privacy, um, versus, you know, other continents, um, and formats, et cetera-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... that people are more responsive to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's-
Speaker 1: And so I'm just wondering what their cultural nuances and, and differentiations might look like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think th- the way that we approach it is that we're gonna staff locally, so it's not a bunch of American expats going in and trying to conquer the world is, you know, we have our systems. And it b- becomes very easy for our systems because of the nature for them to flex to the local markets. Even within Southeast Asia, right? The conversation you're having with a marketer in Singapore when they're d- when they're activating in Thailand versus, you know, uh, ver- Malaysia is gonna be a different kind of conversation. And so wanna make sure that your tech and your formats has the flexibility for that marketer come in and tell that story, and that's a beautiful thing that we do on behalf of our publishers. You know, this, this, this massive amount of apps that we allow these publishers who may have been able to sell in, in native, be able to execute on our platform, uh, and we can convert that native unit into a unit that looks and feels appropriate for where the off-platform use.
Speaker 1: Cool. Um, are there particular formats that, um, people should be considering in, in terms of performance or the types of outcomes that they're looking for?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, the, the more immersive, the better, right? I mean, um, certainly, I think we can all agree that there's a bit of ad blindness when it comes to, you know, banners and-
Speaker 1: Sure
Speaker 2: ... and, uh, 300 by 250s and things that are kind of standard. So what we see that performs very, very well is we see immersive video without a doubt. You know, full-screen immersive video on your phone, being able to look at that where the consumer and the, and, you know, the user has completely let in, and we see that that video performs extremely well in terms of, you know, uh, brand recall, brand awareness, uh, consumer intent, um, as well as custom units. So one of the things that, that we're really proud of, and it's, it's an incredibly sticky, um, service that we provide, is we provide a full creative studio. So we're able to be able to customize creative, uh, for any type of unit, any type of platform, um, and we have all the data that, again, backed by AI and agents, that's able to help with best practices about where we even think about in terms of, you know, eye tracking or in terms of, you know, uh, clicks and buttons that we might need to place so that we get maximum, um, engagement.
Speaker 1: Mm. Right.
Speaker 2: I think that's an important word. It's engagement, right? It's not a click we're after. We're after this brand engagement for, on behalf of, of our, our partners.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that value exchange that you talked about.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Um trying to think where to go from here. I mean, I'm, I'm really enjoying the conversation. Uh ...
Speaker 2: This is great. Yeah. Well, I mean, we're in the south of France and having a conversation-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ....about ads. How could it be bad?
Speaker 1: Uh, uh, uh, yeah. Hey, look, we are sat in the south of France, 'course. We're having the conversation around ads. What stood out in terms of some of the conversations that you've been having this week, uh, or some of the things that you've seen? You talked about going in the Palais. Uh, yeah, what, what's, what's struck you?
Speaker 2: Um, uh, I, I think the, the broad crea- When I think about the Palais is, is the amazing creativity, right? And so I've been in this business a while. I've seen a lot of things, and I'm still always just amazed at the new and the novel that you see in there. I'm really proud of our industry to be able to tell these stories in incredibly engaging formats, and certainly, you know, as a part of the industry, it can be a bit schlocky, but when you walk in the Palais and you see, you know, the different kind of executions, I think you're, you're, y- you're really proud to be in the industry. From conversations that I'm having, it continues to be around, uh, first-party data ma- married with third-party data, so working with our advertisers, them being able to bring in their audiences p- paired with our audiences for much better brand performance. All right, that's, uh, marketers, part of that investment has to be around that first party, um, and even w- very large FMCG, CPG companies are, are working really, really hard to build out, you know, build out that data.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I totally agree. I mean, you, you just hear the conversations around us-
Speaker 2: Data, data, data. AI, AI-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ...yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, well, well, this is the Cannes of AI as well.
Speaker 2: It is. I ... Is this, is this the year of AI? Was last year? I mean, I think maybe-
Speaker 1: Exactly like the year of mobile
Speaker 2: ...the next 10 years will be-
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: ...year of mobile, year of CTV. I was part of the year of CTV for I think six or seven years.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, but it's just great when everybody has those conversations, um, and in environments like this, and it's a real free-flowing exchange of information. And one of the things that I really value about Cannes is that we can have these conversations. Uh, certainly I can meet with, uh, our partners in London or New York or Los Angeles, but there's a place here that gives it a bit of space, a bit of time, a bit of relaxation to let the mind go, where the email's not pinging and an assistant's not coming in, and you gotta go to your next meeting, where we can really think about and, and identify how we can collaborate together for the betterment of, of our, our customers and our business.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree. And the, the conversations that I've heard certainly round, round this place, um And ge- general, the Corsair everywhere, the boats. Uh, very different use cases as well in terms-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... of how people are applying AI, whether it's in creative workflow, whether it's within ad tech, whether it's, um, process-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... e- et cetera. What would be really great to understand is on, on your side, how you're ... you've innovated and, and how you're using AI w- maybe within your product or perhaps to just accelerate the development of your product and capabilities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think again, we go back to, you know, LoopMe's history: 14 years built by mathematicians, uh, built on machine learning. So we've been, you know, AI since we started, right?
Speaker 1: Of course.
Speaker 2: I know everybody thinks that AI is LLMs and the ability to, you know, input something into Claude or Gemini and be able to get a really quick response. Where we're really seeing a lot of advantages, certainly on the engineering side, we're seeing massive leverage from being able just for simple code, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2: And so we're able to get features and products out quicker on behalf of our customers, and we're able to iterate quicker on behalf of them. So on behalf of our partners, uh, perhaps as a gaming publisher, um, and they're coming to us with a need or an idea, we can compress those cycles a lot quicker, and that helps them make it a better user experience for their consumers, which then can make it a better user experience for our brands, and it helps kind of, uh... So from, from a workflow perspective, that's where we see, uh, you know, a big lift. Um, but we have seven patents with 11 more in the pipeline all around ML, all around how we analyze the data that we get, and how we, uh, are able to build, uh, audiences and optimize against those audiences in near real time to drive mid-funnel outcomes. Um, that's one of the exciting things. And so what we're able to do from that is we're also able to start working with our advertisers on guaranteed outcomes. So we may transact on a CPM for our media, but what we may optimize towards is, "Hey, I wanna increase my brand lifts," you know-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... "by 40%." Then we can do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, aud- I'm just thinking about audiences in the past of, you know, the X bucket, Y bucket, Z bucket, you know, e- et cetera, and are fair- fairly crude. So I imagine that your use of AI means that there's greater granularity, but also adaptability as well.
Speaker 2: Adaptability is a great word. Um, yeah, that's a great word because what it, what it demonstrates is that you're able to adjust as we go through that campaign, right? And so I'm old enough to remember when it w- you know, we might use a third party for our brand lift survey, and it comes six months later, and it's like, "W- what do I do with this now?" Right? You know, I can't action on it. And so actionable insights, actionable, uh, data, and having that kind of flexibility to do that near real time, it's just a much better consumer experience. And if it's a better consumer experience, they're engaged more. If they're engaged more, they're loving your brand more.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, and then looking at your clients, are they, um, developing their own platforms as well, and perhaps looking to connect to you?
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So all the holding cos are developing their platforms, um, and we're connected with all of them and, you know, working very hard to co-develop product with them, um, especially around brand performance. Um, we work with several marketers who in-house, um, and are both performance marketers as well as brand marketers and able to help them. Uh, interoperability and connectivity, um, is a key tenet of our business, and so we're not precious about, you know, one particular, you know, uh, clean room vendor or one particular data, uh, provider. Um, we want to work with whomever our clients want to work with so that we can get the best possible outcomes. So that's all very kinda standard for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And what are the, what are those clients looking to achieve? Is, is this sort of orchestration or, uh, a whole mix of things?
Speaker 2: It's a whole mix of things, but, you know, we- we'll, we'll kind of see our slice of the pie, which is gonna be around brand performance. Um, and they're, you know, they're, they're... The smart ones, again, are investing in brand performance, so they're putting more consumers in the top of the funnel and they're not just kind of, you know, uh, strip mining th- you know, the 5% that are in market, you know, at that time. They know they've got to continue to fill that funnel. And so the smart markers are really investing in that, taking their first-party CRM, being able to look at high value audiences, being able to work with us in high value audiences and optimize towards those high value audiences to potentially build, you know, uh, increased brand, uh, performance.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think the ad techs are, are communicating better now to, you know, the end user, the, you know, the, the brand, the c- the client, the agency, um, versus in the past? 'Cause in the past, I felt there was a lot of internal lingo. It was almost deliberately over complicated for the buyer.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said this. I've been in ad tech for 15 years. I'm not an oldie. I came out of traditional media, uh, and creative. And when I first got into it, I'm... Why do you have to call these things different? You know, it's not run an ad, it's serve an ad. It's not... It's, you know, rating pre- all of that stuff. And the cynic in me felt like it was a bit of a in- intentional move to kind of create, I don't know if it was opacity or if it was, you know, a, a club that you need to learn to belong to or something like that-
Speaker 1: Right
Speaker 2: .... kind of exclusive in that nature. Um, what i- in the end, what it does is it's an amazing disservice because marketers are busy. They don't have time to go to Ad Tech 101.
Speaker 1: Of course not.
Speaker 2: Right? And I always believe that the more simple, the more better, and the more singular in terms of the conversation. Let's just talk about one thing, one problem that you're having. Let's use common language. Let's get out of the jargon world. You don't need to know how all the connections are. You need to understand what we're gonna deliver for you and what the outcome's gonna be, and how it's gonna matter to you and towards your KPIs.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, this also made me think that ad tech often, right, is really the pipes and the plumbing, and it's, it's-
Speaker 2: Cheers
Speaker 1: ... a lot of it's unseen.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Um, and so therefore it's quite intangible or quite hard for somebody to understand how, how all this fits together Uh, how do you best present that to, uh, to a client, perhaps a, a CMO or to educate an individual?
Speaker 2: I think we meet them where they are.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So, you know, one thing I think I- I- I can say after all these years in, in this business is that marketers, uh, ironically, especially for the creative at The Palais, are, are, are really m- you know, measurement and, and very kind of analytical junkies, right? They're not the creative type. They're really, really focused on, on the numbers. So I wanna meet them where they are. Um, and if they wanna go deep and they wanna, you know, have a very deep product conversation about how everything connects and everything works, we'll bring in our product people and bring in our product marketing people who are incredibly skilled about making the complex very simple and meeting our clients where they are. Some just don't want to have that convers- And they're like, "It's fine. It's what happens behind, you know, scenes," but I wanna make sure I'm getting value, and I wanna make sure that there's not risk associated with that value, whether it's brand reputation or, you know, commerce risk or overpaying. Um, and so I think it's im- really important to understand what their objectives are and be able to be very clear about how we provide value with those objectives.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Before we wind up, and I, I kinda bring the conversation back to the start, I'm just gonna ask you a couple of, um, quick-fire, you know, off-the-cuff-
Speaker 2: Uh-oh
Speaker 1: ... kind of questions. Um, yeah, a brand at the moment you particularly admire in terms of their advertising or, uh, how they go to market.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, there's so many. I wouldn't wanna, you know, just, just pick one. Um, the ones that I admi- I, maybe it's just kind of a bit more general, is the ones that I admire now are, are really intent on long-lasting brand relationships that are very, very consistent-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... in their message and their positioning. They're not kind of jumping from a promotion to a promotion to a promotion. Certainly, there are industries that are heavy promotional that need to, you know, provide price point and things like that. That's the way that the game is, and that's this. But I always have really admired these kind of high consideration.... I had a creative agency for nine years. We did custom magazines for Rolex and Sotheby's and these kind of a high consideration categories, and I always admired the long view that they had. T- the notion of planting a tree that you're never gonna see grow to 100 years old, right? And being good stewards of the brand. And so those are the kind of, th- that's the kind of work that I really, uh, a- admire.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I-, I'm also wondering if I asked one of these people here on one of these tables, "Okay. Um, name me a, a, a, like, a B2B, you know, a, a bra- a B2B or B2C brand that has a presence in Cannes", who do you think they would choose?
Speaker 2: I dunno, you just have to walk along the beach and just, you know, kinda pick anyone. Um, I think the amazing thing about, uh, Cannes is how well and seamless it all feels together, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, certainly you have competitive brands that are next to each other. You have kind of w- you know, there are a lot of frenemies in ad tech, but it all feels incredibly kind of cohesive, um, and unified, and really community.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: If I, if I will. It'd be kind of like one for all, all for one, and not, not particularly contentious, not particularly, like, you know, a battle, but like, "Hey, we're here together to really solve, you know, some of our common clients problems." Yes, we're gonna compete, and yes, of course everyone has competition. Um, but I think as you kind of go down there, I love the notion that there'll be, you know, the huge, uh, ad tech companies that we all know and then, uh, you know, midsize companies like LoopMe that are out there, you know, having conversations with marketers that are meaningful about how to move their brand forward.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, any sort of go-to resource? So could be a podcast, could be a book-
Speaker 2: Well, Business Live, of course
Speaker 1: Ah! Brilliant.
Speaker 2: That's good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I knew you were gonna say that.
Speaker 2: Of course. Of course. Um, do you know, I, I, I find obviously the trades to be, you know, inc- incredibly interesting. I like to see a lot, uh, in, in, a lot about what my peers are saying.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: Um, I'm not a huge LinkedIn poster, but I do value my friends.
Speaker 1: Yup.
Speaker 2: Um, I'm in several kind of, uh, WhatsApp groups with other industry folks and kind of that's where I think you're seeing kind of more of the, the r- the raw stuff that then I can kind of go in and kind of dip in and learn about.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I agree.
Speaker 2: As well as the industry asso- associations. I think they do a very good job about, you know, being good advocates and trying to make sure that we're addressing the really important issues of our day.
Speaker 1: Yeah. For me actually, um, it's interesting you say that. It's moved from the, I guess, the public space, you talking about LinkedIn or it could be a Facebook or whatever, to the personal, l- the private, you know, s- feed to messaging.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And that's where I'm finding most value in terms of people I connect with and the conversations that we have.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Um, and then very, very last question. So you talked about the start of your career and your journey and g- getting into TV and, and so on.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: For a younger person perhaps at the start of their career or contemplating getting into world of marketing media, advertising or tech, it would be great if you could just offer, you know, a piece of guidance or a piece of advice for them.
Speaker 2: Well, I actually have one in my household right now. My youngest is, uh, working this summer, uh, for a very large public relations firm, and the advice I told him as he started his first day in New York is, "Just say yes. Say yes to everything. Just be there. Um, your 20s, you know, as you're starting out, it's all about exposure and learning. You never know what you're gonna bump into. Don't judge anything. Um, just try and expose yourself to as many people as you can and, and look for those people who, you know, are mentors or, or just try and learn as, as much..." You're not supposed to have the answers, and I think a lot of today there's so much pressure on, you know, kids coming up through university or their first few years that, "Oh, I have to have all the answer" You don't. You don't. And I- I'm a big believer in, in office. We, we don't have a full five-day mandate at LoopMe, um, but I think there's so much value for me to be in office as well as some of the younger folks to be able to engage and learn and, and kind of really soak up that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That..
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, oth- otherwise you miss the water cooler moments and, and people who are in different departments and functions who y- you wouldn't communicate with otherwise.
Speaker 2: You also kind of learn by observing.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: Just keep your eyes open and really try and see what's happening and see what happens in kind of the margins of a day, what you call water cooler moments.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh, that's, you know, that's where you start building pattern recognition as a young person, and the sooner you can do that, the, the more clearer the world becomes.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Brilliant. Fantastic answer. Look, it's been really great having you on the show, and, uh, we've had such a great conversation. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you so much, John. Really appreciate it.