Miguel Machado, CEO of Keenfolks, on why competitiveness comes from data rather than AI, and how repeatable intelligent systems are replacing the annual campaign.
"Nobody questions the technology. What is being questioned right now is effectiveness"
Eleven years in CPG marketing and eight years building an AI native marketing company, from a Henkel acquisition in Mexico to a global business founded on outcomes. Machado argues that AI is not the source of a competitive edge, data is, and that the annual campaign is giving way to repeatable systems of intelligence.
Machado spent 11 years in consumer goods marketing, moving through sales, trade marketing, marketing and business roles. At 26, in Mexico, he ran Henkel's first overseas acquisition, the detergent brand VIVA, bought through Colgate-Palmolive, working under a marketing director, Oriol Bonacota, who by his account is now president of Heineken for LATAM. In 2018 he co-founded Keenfolks on the belief that the agency model was broken, and today leads it as CEO. Alongside the agency he built OG.AI, a modular system designed to connect a dollar of marketing investment to a measurable business output, and the company has grown through acquisition into a global business now weighing a capital raise of around 50 million.
In this conversation with host Justin Cooke, Machado argues that the sector was built for output and not outcomes, and that the fix is to connect business problems directly to marketing systems. He makes a pointed case that competitiveness comes through data, not AI, that investment in agentic AI keeps climbing even as most pilots fail, and that the real answer is often people rather than technology. He wants brands to own the proprietary data that guarantees their edge before buying another tool, to chase growth first and let efficiency follow, and to keep believing in the work. Data is the centre, and it always was.
Data was the centre when we started with digital gap management, and it remains the centre. At Cannes, AI was the most repeated phrase, and if you count how often data was said, you see a big gap. Competitiveness does not come through AI, it comes through data. The companies focusing on data are the ones that will get the competitive edge out of AI.
We never start by focusing in efficiency, never.
We never start by focusing on efficiency. Efficiency should be a consequence. Our focus is growth: we develop intelligent systems for brand growth. The strategy is expansive, and then the way we orchestrate the systems delivers the effectiveness and efficiency needed. Focusing on efficiency sometimes subtracts global value because you focus on the wrong questions.
And that is happening with 90% of pilots failing.
There is a bigger bet and a bigger commitment. Investment in agentic AI for companies over one billion rose from around 80 million to 120 last year, with McKinsey projecting 160 this year. And that is happening with 90 percent of pilots failing. The contradiction means nobody questions the technology. What is being questioned is effectiveness. Companies are investing across the board, in the CMO and the CTO.
Otherwise, you're going to risk to build up on something that you need to come back later because you will not have the end in mind.
My recommendation is you need the third in place: decide what data must be proprietary to guarantee competitiveness, and what technology guardrails it, then scale. Otherwise you risk building on something you have to come back to later, because you will not have the end in mind.
The sector was very much oriented to output and not outcomes
The sector was oriented to output and not outcomes: billable hours and services rather than a connection with the business. Technology was rising in importance for marketing and there was a disconnect. And consultancies owned strategy while agencies executed channel plans. We built Keenfolks to connect business with real outcomes.
"We put a lot of focus on technology, but sometimes the answer comes from people."
Speaker 1: I'm delighted to welcome to this edition of the Business and Marketing recorded live here at The Dept Garden, uh, from Cannes Lions 2026. Miguel Machado, who's the CEO of KEENFOLKS. Miguel, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure, Justin. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm excited about this conversation because it's gonna be about sort of where marketing is moving. And, you know, you are someone who came into this kind of with a vision early. I mean, 2018, way before anyone was really thinking in the way that you're thinking that sort of, you know, AI is, you know, is, is, you know, is, is, is, is really, you know, a, a, a whole new kinda category, and that what we need to be thinking about is sorta building an AI native marketing network. So let's kick off. As I said, 2018 you founded KEENFOLKS with the view that the agency model was broken. So what were you seeing then that made you so sure?
Speaker 2: Well, there is like three factors that somehow compute for that. The first one is that the sector was very much oriented to output and not outcomes, and I think that starts there. Hours, billable hours, services, uh, and not so much the connection with the business. So that is the first. The second one is the connection between marketing and technology. So at that time, we already seen that technology was raising a lot of importance for marketing and for marketing, uh, strategy, and there was somehow a disconnect. And the third factor, and I would say it's something that is really important in the sector, is that from one side you have the consultancies that somehow take on, uh, strategy, and then from the other you have the agencies, uh, that somehow are more connected with channel strategies than business strategies. So there was like a kind of disconnect, and they were more oriented to execution. So we saw an opportunity; and the opportunity was to create a model that better connect business, okay, with real outcomes. And that was, uh, the reason why we created KEENFOLKS at that time, and we still believe it's a val- a valid, uh, contribution in the, the sector today.
Speaker 1: Uh, that kind of question around validity, right? You know, no one starts anything expecting its plan to survive first contact-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... right? So, okay, eight years on, fast-forward, has that view been proved right for the reasons you expected, or has the market kind of evolved and sort of fragmented, broken in different ways?
Speaker 2: Look, Justin, I believe that today we are in a moment that somehow is changing everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So you say, uh, what has happened, uh, in the last eight years, and maybe we need to start thinking about the next six months.
Speaker 2: So what I believe in, okay, is that companies, especially in this sector, need to remain very flexible and very connected with a purpose. We are here to serve clients to solve business problems. Marketing is all about that. How we define and how we create the parameters to identify the real business problem, and then we can configure the strategy around it. So AI is not only about tools, it's actually how we start creating solutions to solve business problems for our clients. And that is how we see it in terms of opportunity in the market to actually create something that is more specific on the way that we approach the problem to the, to the client.
Speaker 1: And on that journey that you've been on, how have you kind of adapted your philosophy to reflect a deeper understanding of the market, the clients, and their needs?
Speaker 2: Well, I, I ... Well, first there is an evolution on the proprietary methodology. So we started with digital gap management, and we clearly understood that data was the center. Uh, today re-... Data remains the center. People talk a lot about AI. We are in Cannes. Probably it was the most repeated two words in all events: AI, AI, AI, AI, AI. And then you can compare that with the number of times that was repeated data, and you see a big gap. And now I tell you, competitiveness don't come through AI. It comes through data. The companies that actually are focusing on data are the ones that will be able to get the competitiveness edge out of the AI. So I believe that that connection, okay, is the one that makes somehow the, the business opportunity and the way that you serve your clients the right way to approach the market.
Speaker 1: You equated to say, "We don't run campaigns. We build intelligent marketing systems."
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: Well, that's, that's a good one. So we believe that campaigns somehow ... And I was a marketeer. I've been in CPG for 11 years, okay? And you ran campaigns in a yearly base. So you said, "Oh, I'm going to run a campaign," and the campaign is to launch a product or to launch a, a, a new, uh, variety or whatever it is, no? And that was the system until now. Then you generate, like, a research; you generate the big idea; you understand what is the strategy to deploy to the channels; finally you launch; and then you report, okay? And you see if there is results that can connect with the objectives that you had. All of that is changing now. Why it's changing? Because the technology allows you to create systems that are repeatable. So you need, you need to think more on reputable systems, uh, that generate intelligence and the loops, okay, of learning that can grow with a platform. Okay? So that means that independently of the campaign that you are launching, if it's, uh, in this case, uh, I dunno, St. Valentine or Christmas or whatever it is, it's piling up on the strategy and on the understanding on how the brand needs to market their campaigns. So this is what intelligence system means. So, uh ... And, and we somehow, uh, are very focused on that. So we have many examples within our clients on how to generate these repeatable systems
Speaker 1: What did that sort of experience at Henkel kind of teach you about, you know, um, the world that you were looking to invent-
Speaker 1: ... improve?
Speaker 2: That's a, a great question, man. That's really in the point. So let me tell you one thing. Uh, so when I was in Mexico, I was 26, and I was running the first acquisition of Henkel overseas, VIVA. VIVA is a detergent brand that we acquired through Colgate-Palmolive. And my marketing director today is president of Heineken for LATAM, Oriol Bonacota. And one of the things that we were really, uh, invested on was to understand how we create a system to identify return investment of the campaigns that we are launching, of the investment that we have, and it was always a mess because we created the algorithms. We tried to somehow formulate how that output could mean, but there was always additional questions. What's happening in point of sales? What's happening? So what I see now is that today that reality comes to practice, and there is many tools and many systems that allows you to create better connection between business, okay, and campaigns or, in this case, marketing initiatives, and that's what we are looking for. So that was a big change, and I think that today's world you can, you can allow brands and companies to actually get to the understanding of the business outcome of what they are doing in marketing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. With that kinda discipline that you get from working in s- in CPG, right?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: You know, um, it's ... How ... You know, kind of how, how sort of like when you talk about outcomes, how do you sort of apply that kind of, that measurement and metrics kind of thinking-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... to the world that you're in now?
Speaker 2: Yes. So that's, that's, uh, tha- that's a particularly sensitive aspect of the equation. Uh, we always start with a business case. Always. So that means independently of what we're going to do, we start with a business case. And the first question that we raise, it, what is really the business problem that we are trying to solve, because the strategy is founded on that. But you need to go step by step. You need to understand where is the market. Like for example in banking, okay? Let's try to understand what does that mean. Okay, are you increasing retention? Are you increasing cross selling? That is extremely important for them. Are you increasing penetration? Okay, what is the size of the market? What are we looking for? Okay, and then what are we going to do? Then from the what are we going to do, how we can connect with the outcome. And you get actually to almost a P&L, okay? You get an EBIT. And then out of the EBIT, you need to generate different, uh, views of what return on investment means. And al- we always benchmark. So there are many solutions today that you can actually benchmark and understand what is the output, but we don't stay only there. So we go a little bit step further, okay? And we decided that especially for, uh, brands and companies that are really compromised on transformation and they do bet, we bet with them. So we are outcome based, uh, partners. So that means that we understand what are the scenarios, A, B, C, and we partner with our clients in order to guarantee that we are in a d-, uh, in a risk adverse scenario or a risk, uh, somehow reduction scenario for our partners based on the learnings and the knowledge that we have.
Speaker 1: And when you're working with clients over a period of time, particularly I'd say like over the last kinda two years or so-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: .... like what are you noticing about the amount of investment they're making, you know, in your product and services versus, say, two years before? What's the shift?
Speaker 2: Well, the shift goes to a, a bigger bet. So I think that befo- And there is a, there is a change. Okay? So first there is a bigger commitment. So if you understand what is the investment in agentic AI since, uh, in last year. Let's put last year. Last year we started with an investment around 80 million, 80 million in the first quarter in agentic AI for companies of more than one billion. Okay? They finalized more or less around 120. Okay? This year, okay, according with McKinsey, they're going to finish in 160. This is the projection, what people are saying. And that is happening with 90% of pilots failing. So what does that mean, that contradiction, you invest more , uh, while pilots are failing? It means that nobody questions the technology. What is being questioned right now is effectiveness, so that is something that I'm seeing the change. So companies are really investing on the technology. They understand that there is a clear output to be taken, and there is a roadmap that needs to be invested on. And, and we are seeing that, uh, I mean in all the quadrants, uh, both in CMO but also in CTO.
Speaker 1: Uh, that C-suite kinda dynamic, you know, you ... Before we started this conversation, you were asking me about kind of the ICP of the business of marketing itself-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... right? Like, how has that sort of shifted over time as well since you began kinda KEENfolks?
Speaker 2: Wow. That has been shifting a lot. I think that CMO probably has the, uh, smallest tenure from all the C level.
Speaker 2: So they are really under pressure. I think that the CMO, um, got technical, so you don't, y- you don't, uh, you already expect them to understand technology, and they a- they are understanding that, so this is the first shift. The second shift is that there is a clear, uh, need, uh, that is being somehow respondent from the CTO to understand marketing, and before it was like, "Bring me the solution that you want, and I give it to you." Now it's not like that. They are really framing the problem from a business challenge and also from marketing point of view And then I think that the third point that is, uh, fundamental is that you see a clear mandate from the top. And that mandate from the top allows barriers to somehow dissipate. So you can actually work and interact along different areas and have more commitment. So it's not only my garden , it's our garden. So that's- that equation helps on transforming in a correct way, uh, the business and on betting on important projects to get effective, uh, return.
Speaker 1: Here we are in Cannes. You've got CMOs. You're tripping over CMOs as you walk down the Croisette. Y- having a conversation with them over a glass of rosé or sparkling water, uh, whatever it is you're drinking.
Speaker 1: Um, and y- you know, they're really committed. Uh, maybe it's the marketing director of Henkel. Who knows, right?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: What- what's the first step that you're basically gonna kind of take that CMO through to get on this journey?
Speaker 2: The first thing is understand what is the business challenge.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I would try to be very practical. What is the business challenge that you have the next three months?
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: So ... And then I would walk him through a framework, like, on, on how to help to connect that. So we are really focusing in, uh, not in piloting, but in actually make the pilot work. And we, what we are seeing as well in the market is that sometimes we are being called when the pilot fails. So, and, and I believe that sometimes-
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... we put a lot of focus on technology, but sometimes the answer comes from people. And it's, it's like that. So, so we try to take the, any conversation into a, a problem, uh, template that we can clearly frame. Where are the barriers? What are the situation that you are facing? And then try to create an equation that connects business processes, people, and technology all together, okay? In order to guarantee that you have an output. And this, we try to do it as agile as possible, and proving along the way, okay? So that is, that is the way that we normally approach. Uh, and we are very curious, so we are, we always start from a consultancy ground to try really to understand what, uh, what answer we need to, to bring.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the sort of the journey you've gone on with KEENfolks. Uh, you know, from service business to system business. KEENfolks grew through acquisitions. Alongside that, you built OG.AI. What were you trying to create that a standard agency could not?
Speaker 2: The vision that we have since the early start, since our first, uh, project with Coca-Cola, uh, was I would like to have a system that allows me or supports me, uh, on the understanding if I invest $1, what's going to be my output after all the ecosystem? Say, say I put $1, okay, doesn't matter how you activate the strategy and the activation, but what comes as an output? Today, we are being, we are getting closer to that. And that is what we want to make it through. And we want to make through, obviously, this is not about one tool. So there is, there are, I would say that there are s- some companies that approach this from a tool base, uh, uh, challenge. We don't do that. We think that this is modular, so you need to actually create several modules that can connect together in order to get there. Um, and on that point, if you allow me just to, to expand on the-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... on the answer. Um, I believe that today there are two types of company. There is one company that I think that is the one that we see more, is like they are eager for the, the, the solution or for the, the s- the, the tool. "Give me the tool. I want to solve a problem." Not bad or wrong; it's the reality. Then there is a second, uh, segment that is very interested on partnership with enterprise. I ha- I have a partnership with Microsoft or Salesforce or, uh, Google, or whoever it is, and I'll bring them as my major contributor for the transformation. There is a third part, okay, and there are s- some good examples on that, that they are saying, "No. I'm not going to buy this. I'm going to build." I'm not going to build everything, so coming back to the ecosystem, it's not that I'm going to build everything, but I'm going to ask myself, what is the data that I need to be proprietary to guarantee my competitiveness as a business? And then I will try to understand what is the technology that I need to guardrail that proprietary data.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Okay? And, and then I will scale. And this is happening. There are some companies, uh, some, some of them I d- we don't work, but, uh, it's interesting the approach that they have at PG. And there is a trend that is helping on that as well. Uh, as, as you might see, like in Coca-Cola, for example, there is, uh, a CMO today has, uh, also responsibility on, on the commercial side. So that is connecting the pieces and making everything go together.
Speaker 1: And a more clear outcome focused strategy, right? By l- alignment on that. I-- And you said n- not good, not bad. Uh, you have a kind of a view of, of which of those three options is the right way forward. I mean, I, I, from what you explained, I, I personally do.
Speaker 2: Well, I, if it's my recommendation, okay, uh, I would say you need to have the third-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: … in place.
Speaker 1: 100%.
Speaker 2: Otherwise, you're going to risk to build up on something that you need to come back later because you will not have the end in mind.
Speaker 1: Now talking about building or buying, um, w- you've obviously gone through series of acquisitions. What did they give you that hiring and organic growth wouldn't have been- And they've given you as an alternative
Speaker 2: Okay. So, so let, let me clarify that we are in the process of-
Speaker 1: Okay
Speaker 2: ... we are not doing active acquisitions now.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So what we've seen with KEENFOLKS is that we have a much bigger platform than the one that we can serve to our clients, and that's wh- why we want to scale. We want to scale not only, uh, geographically; we are a global company, okay? And we are not in a rush. We are doing that step by step, okay? So the first thing that we want to guarantee is that we have, uh, representation in a geographic way. There are a lot of local, uh, markets where we are not in, and in some of the pitches and RFPs that we are invited, the, the ... To be in, uh, Brazil, it's still extremely important, so we want to guarantee that. And by the way, we are guaranteeing as we speak, okay? But the same happens with Australia or it happens with China, so we need to guarantee that. And why we do it, it's not only commercial ambition or growth or ... We want to guarantee that we can offer to our clients an expansion, okay? In terms of the value that we can create. So that is why we do it. Uh, uh, organically, it's extremely, uh, difficult to grow in this market, as you know. So it has been proven by all the - the last, I would say, 20, 30, 40 years that the, the business organically, it's very difficult to build. So you need to create somehow, um, strategies that can accelerate that so you don't lo- lose opportunities and at the same time you can serve, uh, the clients as you should.
Speaker 1: How have you sort of changed the way that you sell so clients kind of are buying, you know, this outcome mindset that you've been describing-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... and not just effort?
Speaker 2: Uh, we try not to sell.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So that is the first rule, and we are putting that rule all the time, and it's extremely difficult because sometimes it can be confusing. So it's like I'm, I'm telling you what is my reality, and you can think at the same time that I'm trying to sell. But we try to be very didactic, and I'm more and more invested on keynote speaking, on participation in conversations like the ones that we are having right now, uh, and, and guaranteeing that ... Well, I j- I just did a keynote for Khan Foundation, um, and approaching as well a very important topic on how the labor market is changing. So these kind of, um, even perspectives, okay, bring awareness and interest that can somehow be useful for our audience, in this case I think that we have a common audience
Speaker 2: But also to our clients, and this is what we are trying to build. We are trying to build that in an open way, in an expansive way, and guaranteeing that we are in the right conversation.
Speaker 1: And as you've built the business, I mean you've worked all over the world, right, yourself, and you're buil- you're building a global business, what have you, what have you kind of learned sort of that, on that kind of global kinda journey?
Speaker 2: Wow. Like, hey man, the
Speaker 1: How long have we got?
Speaker 2: The ... I think that the first year was critical for us because we start with a global initiative in US. Uh, US is very disciplined regarding deliveries, so, um, and, and, uh, we needed to adopt the right culture to be persuasive regarding the strategy that we thought that was the correct one. So when we were starting deploying the first initiatives globally, there was a sense that you could actually deploy global campaigns and the markets would adapt in a organic way, like if it was a product. Uh, what we discover was that the connection between global headquarter and regional headquarter-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... and local deployment is highly valuable. So we instinctively somehow supported the idea that we needed to travel and we needed to meet the people, and we did that. So it's, it's kind of contradictory. We're talking about technology, and all of a sudden you say that you need to meet the people . And I would say that this is still a, a very core focus of the company today. We bo- we, we build on a capability, and this capability is the capacity to actually, uh, influence the connection between headquarter and local markets in order to have effective deployments, and we got really experts on that.
Speaker 1: And when you're deploying kind of globally, are you noticing there is a higher degree of kind of sort of adoption, um, execution market by market? Or is it sort of, or is it down to the kind of the mindset of the business or the, or the people running that, that market?
Speaker 2: Uh, well, the philosophy's always the same. I've been in the market as well, like, when I was in Henkel I've been in the market and I've been in coordination.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And the market is always resistant because they say, "Okay, this is my culture. This is my how. This is not going to work." So how you change that belief, okay, and that resist ... Or, "I always work like this, so why are you bringing me"-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ..."now a technology that I need to adopt?" Um, and adaption is key, so if you are trying to persuade somebody by force, it will not work. It will break. So what we try to do is try to understand really what are the local levers, what is the business strategy locally, and how we can connect the business local strategy to a global framework, okay? And then try to make adjustments that don't commit or don't compromise the global strategy but at the same time serve the local interests. And we, we kind of developed a special nature on that that we are using all the time, and that makes the adoption of the technology that we actually work on easier to deploy because- Um, technology without people, there is no purpose.
Speaker 1: And I love that. That's a great link into my next question around sort of the human side, I guess. You know, like you... Yeah, you're quoted sort of talking about cutting kind of monthly marketing costs by half, tripling the speed of delivery over current t- tools. In your experience, kind of love the operational efficiency, love the speed thing. A lot of people here are talking about that. But, but ultimately, kind of how do we ensure that we kinda still make the work more effective?
Speaker 2: Yeah. We never start by focusing in efficiency, never.
Speaker 1: Hmm. Interesting.
Speaker 2: Because efficiency should be an ef- an effect, a consequence. So our focus is on growth. So we develop intelligent systems for brands growth. What does it mean? It means that the strategy is expansive, okay? And then we guarantee that by consequence, the way that we orchestrate the systems, the solutions, whatever it is, if it's in media, if it's in content factory, if it's, I don't know, data systems or command centers, we guarantee that the output give us the effectiveness and the efficiency that is necessary. So, and we c- we, we believe, okay, furthermore, um, that focusing on efficiency sometimes subtracts the global value that you have because you, you focus in the wrong questions.
Speaker 1: You're quoted as sort of right now targeting a significant capital raise, um-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... y- fifty million or so, um, by the end of the year. Uh, w- what, what's driving that? You know, and, and sort of, you know, and, and kind of why, why not sort of adopt a, a kind of more slower self-funded kinda path?
Speaker 2: Good. I mean, th- this is perfect, uh, what you are asking because it's a perfect segue of what I'm going to say. We are not in a rush . So we put ourselves very strong objectives. We are very ambitious as a company. Our vision is very expansive. What we want is to generate, uh, human amplification through technology and guarantee that our clients get the growth that they ambition through the combination between technology and, and the human capabilities. Uh, and we are doing that already. So we are global. So we are taking our time. So that means that that is the objective. I think that the amount is less important than the, the guaranteeing that we get the execution, and we are going through that. Uh, and I believe, I really believe that we are doing something that the market is requiring, okay? And that is the reason why we do it. So that is our, uh, focus. Our focus is guaranteeing that day after day we guarantee that our objectives get checked. Okay? At the same time, we are a, a small company, so we need to guarantee that the focus that we have with our clients doesn't get defocused, and that is the priority number one. So we want to make the things work step by step.
Speaker 1: As we said, you've been brand side, you sort of been services side. Now you're very much software side. Kind of what are the kind of real, kind of, I suppose, superpowers from each of those different sides that you're bringing together to make KEENfolks a really magic business?
Speaker 2: Uh, well, the first one is, like, our ... I think it comes from the founder's attitude. So Xavi comes from product experience, okay? And always been always passionate about innovation , but innovation on business. So I always come from ethics. Always besides I can ... My background German company and technology bring me this attitude regarding numbers and regarding objectivity. So I think that make us, uh, unique on the approach that we have. So we always approach from a business point of view. And then we bring the magic that comes together. We bring the compliance. We bring the initiatives. We bring, uh, the media, but we bring it on the logic of serving the business and not b- somehow limited by only a brand limiting vision. Because sometimes when you open up, you see opportunities that you never see.
Speaker 1: And if you could go back in time and you could chat to the Miguel who was basically that key account manager at Henkel, what's the one piece of advice that you would give him?
Speaker 2: So yeah, I, I also been key counter. I, I, I was very privileged. So I was in sales. I was in marketing. I was in business. Uh, I was e- even in the middle, in trade marketing . So the advice that I would give him in a clear way is that keep believing because that is the only thing that moves you. It doesn't matter if you need to adjust, if you need to make it s- slightly different, but your belief in what you can do and what you can create, that is magic. So, and I would say never stop believing .
Speaker 1: What a great way to end this conversation, Miguel. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason. It was really, really, really very, uh, pleasant, this conversation. Thank you very much, Jason
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