Episodes  · Season 5  · Episode 87  · 34 min

Minter Dial: The Tattoo Test

Minter Dial, three-passport author of Heartificial Empathy and You Lead, on strategy as the courage to say no, empathy as the tool AI cannot replace, and brand lived from the inside out.

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 ·  The Business of Marketing  · S5 E87  · 34 min
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"Brand is lived by your employees first. Not a logo on a thirty-second spot."

The Conversation with Justin Cooke

Three decades across Wall Street, L’Oreal and the keynote circuit. Minter Dial on strategy as the courage to say no, the difference between emotive and cognitive empathy in AI, the seven-second hug as a living brand artefact, and why the best test of a company is whether anyone would tattoo its logo on their skin.

Minter Dial describes himself as an elevator. Three passports, fifteen country moves, and a 34-year career that spans product marketing at Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette, sixteen years across L’Oreal in four countries culminating in the Managing Director role for International Professional Development, and fifteen years of keynote speaking, consulting, writing and podcasting through The Myndset Company and MYDIAL.

In this conversation with host John Horsley, Minter Dial argues the AI moment has not made business more human. It has made the lack of strategic backbone more visible. He separates empathy into its emotive and cognitive parts, explains which part machines can and cannot replicate, makes the case for trust built from the inside out, unpacks his signature Redken seven-second hug and the brand thesis underneath it, and closes with one of the sharpest provocations on the show: would anyone want your company’s logo tattooed on their skin?

Key Takeaways

  • Dial describes himself as an elevator, raising the level of debate on leadership, brand, empathy and AI. Thirty-four years across Wall Street, sixteen years at L'Oreal, fifteen years running The Myndset and MYDIAL. Seven books, four award winners.
  • Strategy is the courage to say what not to do. Channel proliferation and data overload have produced widespread burnout. The cure is not more tools. It is a clearer strategic backbone that lets the organisation say no with confidence.
  • Empathy has two parts: emotive (feeling what another feels) and cognitive (thinking about what is felt). Machines cannot have the first. They can outperform humans on the second because they have no bias or social filter. Leaders must be empathic first, then extend that empathy via AI.
  • Brand is lived by employees first, not attached as a logo to a thirty-second spot. Dial's Redken seven-second hug, based on the finding that hearts synchronise at twenty seconds of close contact, is his working example of brand lived inside out. Tribes need exclusivity as well as inclusion.
  • The meaningfulness test: how would the world be worse off if your company did not exist? Paired with the tattoo test: who would want your company's logo on their skin? Both questions force clarity on what the organisation truly stands for.

Topics Covered

  1. 01 Thirty-four years across DLJ, L’Oreal in four countries, two consulting practices, seven books
  2. 02 Strategy as the courage to say what not to do, in an age of burnout
  3. 03 Heartificial empathy: what AI can and cannot do with the cognitive side of empathy
  4. 04 Brand lived inside out: the seven-second hug, tribal exclusivity and the customer service desk
  5. 05 Meaningfulness and the tattoo test: what the best leaders stand for

Key Exchanges

05
01 Is AI making organisations more human, or less?

If fear is human, then more human. I see a lot of fear. A lot of fatigue. Strategy is a question of choice.

Dial argues the proliferation of channels, tools and data has produced widespread burnout. The cure is more strategic backbone, not more tools. Strategy is a question of choice. What we do not do, and where we do not go, matter more than what we do. The easy path is copying what everyone else is doing, because nobody gets fired for it. The differentiating path is saying no.

02 What do business leaders misunderstand about empathy in AI?

Empathy is the most important tool a negotiator has. The best designers use it. Managers should too.

Dial splits empathy into an emotive part (feeling what another feels) and a cognitive part (thinking about what is felt). Machines cannot do the first. They can outperform humans on the second because they have no bias or social filter obstructing listening. The rule: be an empathic organisation first, then use AI to extend that cognitive empathy at scale. Never delegate empathy wholesale to AI.

03 How do leaders build trust in a black-box-AI era?

If you don’t trust yourself, how can you trust anyone else? Start with the C-suite. Then the departments. Then the outside.

Distrust has been rampant for years. AI opacity compounds it. Dial’s approach: build trust inside out. Measure the trust inside the company first. Observable behaviours: Would I follow this person into the unknown? Do I feel safe disagreeing? Do I delegate? Customers receive what the team already holds. You cannot deliver a trust signal externally that does not already live internally.

04 The seven-second hug.

Hearts begin to synchronise after twenty seconds. Talk about making branding personal.

When Dial ran Redken worldwide, he introduced longer-than-comfortable hugs inside the organisation. The discomfort was the filter. People who were not a fit for the tribe self-selected out. It was uncomfortable by design. And it was a living example of brand lived inside out. Customer service, he adds, is the only department with the word "customer" in it, yet most companies denigrate or outsource it. At L’Oreal Canada he held one in three board meetings at the customer service centre.

05 Meaningfulness and the tattoo test.

How would the world be worse off if your company didn’t exist?

Dial’s opening chapter of Futureproof is called Meaningfulness. Ask the question, and half of most rooms go quiet. He pairs it with a second provocation, the tattoo test: who would want your company’s logo on their skin? Typically a few people raise their hand. They are almost always entrepreneurs, and the company name is their own name. Without an answer, brand work is cosmetic. With one, every later decision becomes easier.

S5 E87Season & Episode
34 minDuration
7 Published Books, Four of Them Award Winners
550+ Episodes of the Minter Dialogue Podcast Since 2010

"How would the world be worse off if your company didn’t exist?"

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Season 5 Episode 87 34 min
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Lightly edited for readability.

Host Introduce yourself and your journey.

Dial I consider myself an elevator. I try to elevate the debate wherever I go. I specialise on transformation, branding and leadership. Three passports, British, American and French. I’ve moved country 15 times, been a tennis pro, worked in investment banking and at L’Oreal for 16 years. I’ve published seven books and I’m working on the eighth, plus a WWII documentary film.

Host How did the cultural background affect you as a marketer?

Dial Beneficial. I studied trilingual literature. I love the subtleties of language, the way a slogan in one country can be interpreted very differently in another, and differently again inside each of our minds.

Host Are organisations becoming more human in the AI era, or less?

Dial Depends how you define human. If fear is human, then more human. I see a lot of fear, a lot of fatigue. The issue is being more strategic. Strategy is a question of choice. What we do, and more poignantly, what we don’t do. Instead of trying to be everywhere all the time for everyone.

Host Channel and data overload.

Dial It’s contributed to burnout, both of companies and employees. How clear is the strategy throughout the entire company? The easy thing is to do what everyone else does, because you don’t get into trouble. The problem is we’re trying to do too many things, not really focused on what we’re trying to achieve, or why. Knowing why is what narrows the choices.

Host Has AI made employees more aware of the business?

Dial I don’t think AI is the tool that achieves that. Everybody is on board with "we need an AI strategy." The upstream question is who are we, what is our voice, how are we going to use AI in a proprietary way. If you use it like everybody else, you get what everyone else gets.

Host What do leaders misunderstand about empathy and AI?

Dial A lot of people think empathy is weakness. Empathy is the most important tool a negotiator has, the best designers use it, and managers should too. Empathy has two parts. The emotive, feeling what another feels. The cognitive, thinking about what is felt. Machines cannot have the first. They can outperform us on the second because they have no bias or social filter. Don’t delegate empathy to AI. Be empathic as an organisation first, then use AI to extend it.

Host Trust.

Dial Distrust has been rampant for a long time. AI black boxes don’t help. If you don’t trust yourself, how can you trust anyone else? Self-confidence, self-awareness, self-knowledge feed the fabric of trust. I like to talk about inside out. If you want customers to trust you, start with the C-suite. Then the departments trusting each other. Then the outside. Measure trust inside the company first.

Host How do you measure that?

Dial Behavioural observations. Would I run over the precipice with this person? Do I delegate? Do I feel safe giving an opinion contrary to the boss? Those are indicators.

Host On your book You Lead.

Dial A leader needs to be a leader of himself or herself first. Authenticity means understanding your bad sides, being vulnerable enough to say, I didn’t have a good night’s sleep, I had a fight, I may not be as on point today. We tend to promote leaders who are infallible Energizer bunnies, which puts incredible pressure on them and leads to burnout. Five traits I write about are curious, humble, empathic, courageous and karmic. Karmic means giving before you expect, delegating authority, granting autonomy, trusting.

Host Great leaders are great listeners.

Dial Yes. And you have to know whom to listen to. The loud voice, or the quiet person at the table. Customer service is the only department in a company with the word customer in it, and it’s often denigrated or outsourced. When I ran L’Oreal Canada, one in three board meetings was held at the customer service centre. Ronan Dunn at Verizon used to spend 30 minutes a day on Twitter listening to customer complaints.

Host Brand as a tribe.

Dial Brand is something your employees live first. Not a logo on a screen or in a thirty-second spot. Tribes need exclusivity as well as inclusion. Who are you FOR, and who are you not for? At Redken we had the seven-second hug. Longer than comfortable. A study showed that at twenty seconds of close contact, hearts begin to synchronise. If you weren’t comfortable with it, you weren’t for us and we weren’t for you. Branding gets personal.

Host A brand you admire.

Dial Two. Lego, because of play. We need more play at work. Trust forms through play. And Salesforce, because of Marc Benioff. Candid individual, built an amazing product, but also built a give-back culture without marketing it.

Host A leadership cliche to retire.

Dial Don’t take it personally. Business IS personal. Allow your personality to thrive. Hocus pocus, take it personally.

Host One tech trend that excites you. One that concerns you.

Dial Vibe coding in AI, lots of opportunities. Drones concern me. Drone warfare, drone deliveries. It’s the Wild West on governance.

Host Futureproof’s first chapter.

Dial Meaningfulness. What’s meaningful about what you do, why you do it. I’ll end with this. How would the world be worse off if your company didn’t exist?

Host Paying it forward.

Dial Give without expecting. That’s karmic. If you expect, it’s transactional. And a provocation. Would anyone wear a tattoo of the company you work for on their body? Typically only entrepreneurs raise their hands, because the company name is their own name. What do you stand for, knowing we won’t stay at any company forever? If you’re clear on your deep-down values, the coherence makes it possible.

Host Advice to someone entering business.

Dial When you’re young, you don’t know who you are. That’s fine. Try stuff. Have the courage to stand up. Throw spaghetti at the wall. Life is 24 hours a day. Embrace imperfection. Embrace risk. And don’t mistake risk for safety.