Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: You're listening to The Business of Marketing, providing marketing intelligence and more from the leaders shaping the industry. You're a founder and chief positioning engineer at V2RSION, with a two in it, uh, instead of an E.
Speaker 2: Dot com.
Speaker 1: Dot com.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: You've worked across brand media, go-to-market leadership for more than two decades.
Speaker 2: Don't age me.
Speaker 1: From Bacardi and Microsoft to Vodafone, and now your own positioning business.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What first drew you into marketing?
Speaker 2: Uh, so I picked up a copy of Marketing Week when I was 14, very sadly, and, you know, astronaut, train driver, brand manager, like I... It's what... I, I loved advertising, and I loved marketing, and it's what I always wanted to do, very sadly in some ways. But I then took kinda an education course, as in like a, a path, which was psychology and sociology and economics, and then into, uh, business and marketing at university. It is kinda like where I wanted to go. I love, I love people and people in groups and understanding those dynamics of kinda influencers of this evening and so on like that. It's a great... And marketing is all of that.
Speaker 1: And so that, you've taken me up to kind of higher education, but then there's obviously then a, a, another step after that that gets you into marketing.
Speaker 2: There's... Uh, I was really lucky to get into Nestlé, um, for kind of just postgraduate, which, you know, it was hard then, it's probably harder now kind of getting, getting postgraduate roles. And it's got a great blue chip for set of category trains, marketing, um, educations there. Proceeded through category and brand management, um, roles and, and then fell into media as a specialism. So within the broad church of, of marketing, I ended up being a functional specialist and, and media leadership, uh, person. So I grew through that capability from InBev, uh, into Kimberly-Clark, Microsoft, where I was, um, head of media at Xbox for the EMEA region. I went agency sides, working in China and Dubai to kind of round out my, my media understanding, uh, and experience. And then, and then landed at Vodafone as the global head of media there, where I was, um, running a, a function and a discipline which is about the f- the ops of, of media, but bringing strategy to operations, working across 20 markets, accountable for the deployment of about a billion dollars of, uh, media and advertising investment. Um, and it was, it was great. We took ownership of our data and technology. We made all of those choices on behalf of the business, um, set against a, a group of operating principles that really safeguarded the integrity of what Vodafone were doing within the market, independence, transparency, ownership. And, and then we were one of the first large FTSE 100 businesses to in-house, um, a portion of our media capabilities, se- social and, uh, and programmatic. Um, this is going back in time to kind of like 2018, 2019, something like that. Um, and we rolled that out across 10 markets, and by and large, still in place across the whole of Vodafone's business. So what we were doing was the absolutely the right thing in terms of capability building for the business, um, as well as being able to be more agile in, in operation and so on.
Speaker 1: So, uh, you know, alongside this almost kind of case study in how to build an incredible career in marketing-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... that will be studied by academics for years in the future.
Speaker 1: Um, what then led you to, to V2RSION?
Speaker 2: So I decided I wanted to get back to marketing after like 20 years as a, as a media specialist within that broad church of marketing. And I, I, I guess like, like a few people, I, I just started consulting. I started trading off of my experience and wisdom. I heard there's some wisdom there, and it took five years to work out what I wanted to do, I guess. I was incredibly successful as a fractional CMO for media and ad tech businesses, and that was fine. I enjoyed it. I was... been incredibly lucky. I have a great network and was never out of work, um, and worked across some amazing businesses. But within that period of time, there's a kind of few things... I, I strongly believe in serendipity is probably like the one of the strongest strategies that you can engineer, and I think during the course of all of that project work, um, positioning ended up being one of the most frequently requested, um, capabilities or problems to solve that I, um, that I ended up doing. I, I wanted a refresh in marketing really weirdly. Um, I kind of thought it would be kind of fun to do. So I did Mark Ritson's Mini MBA, and it might not be the end or outcome that Mark Ritson would want because I did the Mini MBA and thoroughly enjoyed that refresh. I saw positioning at the center of a planning or a marketing strategy that kind of started with market orientation and ended with the four Ps, and saw this thing which was undervalued, still framed in a 40-year-old legacy of terminology and thinking around what positioning stands for, still couched in marketing as well, which is a... that's probably a whole nother podcast about... Well, I know you call it The Business of Marketing, right? But there's a whole nother podcast on kind of like how marketing has been diluted in its value over time, the role of the CMO, and so like that. And I- I wanted to elevate positioning. I s- I think positioning is a superpower for any founder and any CNO, uh, CEO. And so I set to developing the business that is now V2RSION over time-
Speaker 1: Let's see
Speaker 2: ... and, uh, and launched it last year with its own definition of positioning, its own framework and IP and processes that I'm still evolving and will evolve over time, and I've had a wonderful first year. Um, it's been fantastic.
Speaker 1: Wow. I- I'm really excited about this conversation. For someone listening to this, in a minute or a sentence or two, give me your kind of take on what positioning means.
Speaker 2: It's a good question 'cause I get asked, I get asked the question, "What's the problem with positioning that you see most?" And the answer is, "Nobody fucking knows what it is." Um, which is... And I think it's because it's been stuck in this marketing strategy kind of-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... um, uh, sequence of things to tick off.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it really hasn't been unpacked. The one-sentence answer though to your question, to your very simple question is, it's the context with which you are chosen as a business. Now, we can go layers down on this, and I think you should do, um, but that's essentially it. And, and, and actually, you can apply positioning in, with that definition to anything. How I would be chosen by, you know, with career in mind, as an example, or you know, if I wanted to double down on, on sports and, and so on. Now, I'm actually running the Marathon des Sables next week, uh, which is the Saharan marathon. Which is like, that's a positioning thing for me. It's something I want to excel in, as in, uh, unlocking my own growth potential as such, and that's that. But within the context of B2B technology businesses, which I, I tend to, uh, work with, it's the, the context that we're speaking to is the urgent problem you solve, the category that you exist in and serve, the competitive set that you need to be differentiated against, the value that you create that is unique to you. All of that, that kind of set of ingredients is the context with which we kind of refer to, at least, is the context with which people will choose you. Outside of your control, typically, it's gonna be in environments like searching on LLMs or, uh, word of mouth and conversation where people will discover your capabilities and where you'll get chosen.
Speaker 1: Thank you for the definition 'cause I'm-- without that, I have no context upon which to base the rest of this conversation.
Speaker 2: Nicely done, yeah.
Speaker 1: So you're famous for saying that in today's market, it's no longer enough to stand out and be chosen by people. You also need to be surfaced and selected by machines. When did you first realize that this was becoming a major shift?
Speaker 2: I, I love this human-machine dynamic. I, I, uh, I've brought AI tools and methodologies into my work, and it's part of what makes V2RSION slightly different to other positioning consultants that are out there, right? Say we're sprint-based, we're data-driven, and, um, and we're kind of adaptive in, in that context. But, so the machine thing kind of has a few things that we should unpack actually. So, but within, within the definition of being chosen, it is that search and discovery behavior which is, which is changing quite evidently at the moment. Um, more than ninety percent of, um, B2B buyers or buying processes will harness AI tools within their shortlisting and selection process very often before they even speak to a vendor. So being able to translate your positioning, which we've kind of defined as the, the core to your business strategy, it's not... A- and part of what I've done is remove it from marketing within the way that I speak to businesses and clients, is to have it framed as actually a catalyst for business strategy. So in, in a sequencing point of view, we're taking business strategy, and we're catalyzing it. We're amplifying it and translating it so that it drives your go-to-market, your sales, marketing product. So in that sense, you get your positioning right, you get your go-to-market right. That's where you're gonna execute. That's where you're gonna be discovered. Reddit, uh, LinkedIn, content that you produce, digital PR, how your brand comes across outside of owned assets, your website and so on like that. More in the context of, yeah, where you're discovered in these rich earned assets that, or earned environments that exist out there.
Speaker 1: And building on what we've talked about to get to this point in the conversation, why do you believe that positioning has become such a critical issue again?
Speaker 2: I think it's... Yeah, there's two parts to that, right? So I don't think it's ever been recognized for the value that it-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... it genuinely delivers. Uh, it is that superpower for any CEO and founder who wants to unlock the growth potential for their businesses. You know, a, a business operating without great and clear positioning is kinda like driving a car with a handbrake on. You, you kind of think you're going forwards, but you're really not, and, and it's about lost opportunity. There are kind of signals for any CEO and founder that they should recognize around, you know, why they should, why they should address their positioning. Market confusion, internal alignment is a, is a huge one as well. But equally, it can be positive things like you're launching a new product, you're entering a new market, you're undertaking M&A. So the, the opportunity to look at your positioning is, is, is pretty much always on and always there. AI has just Amplified the urgency of that. So a couple of great examples are, A, your product or technology can be replicated within forty-eight hours now.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So-
Speaker 1: There's no moat
Speaker 2: ... now the, the-- it's a different kind of moat that people need now, which, uh, is more around strategy and is more around the intangibles of brand and content and perception of how the market sees you, the context. That you can control, that you can deploy and distribute. So there's a, there's a speed and replicability point here. It's never been easier to start a business. It's never been harder to scale a business, right? So over half of all startups fail, only one percent get to a meaningful scaled enterprise position now. There's a business called Lovable in, uh, which you might know as a, as a kind of vibe coding app business. And I use it not only because it demonstrates kind of how product replicability can be, can be done so easily now, but it's also their, their head of growth there recently, um, was quoted saying that they review their positioning every three months, every ninety days. Whereas I think a lot of CEOs and founders see it as a kind of one and done exercise. We'll come back to it in two years kind of thing. No, this is a ninety-day thing. Now, this is, this is the slowest that your pace of change will ever be this day, today. It's only ever gonna get faster with AI. Um, the markets are only ever gonna get more congested. There's fifteen thousand MarTech businesses out there, right? You ask the marketing technology vertical, which is a hundred X, uh, I think in a decade. So your competition has intensified. Your... You know, it's never been easier to produce content. So the opportunity for you to be memorable, let alone discovered, is infinitely harder now. So all of these things that are AI induced, there's a better word for it, but you know, they've been driven by AI. AI is this wonderful electricity that we've been, you know, we've been given as an opportunity. And I've created a business, right? Out because, because of it, um, and, and you know, harnessing it. But equally, it's the cause of why positioning is so valuable right now as well.
Speaker 1: I love it. I think it's, it's been a theme of these conversations this week around just the sort of like the democratization of kind of like business, right? You know-
Speaker 2: It's out there
Speaker 1: ... it's just-- Yeah. And then you, and then as you said, right, you know, kind of, and never-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... has it ever been so hard to differentiate.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, which kind of in one way from people I guess in the marketing sector is, is, is a, is a really interesting kind of light, you know, shining.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, so I think you've started to kind of talk about sort of what's broken about the kind of traditional way businesses, uh, think about positioning. But sort of, are there any other kind of positioning approaches that you sort of really kind of wanna kind of challenge and sort of, uh, and reinvent?
Speaker 2: Yeah. The traditional kind of, you know, week-long workshop based approach. So I've, I've wanted to, I've wanted to adapt to the speed of AI, to the speed of, the speed of change that is being imposed on the business world right now. So through any engagement that I have with a client, I'm working on a sprint basis, or it's all evidence-based and data-driven now as well. So you've got kind of speed with veracity, I guess. You've got so much data that can be brought into the positioning process rather than just relying on the opinion of founder or, you know, the opinion of the positioning consultant. All of my work is fact-based and evidence-based. You can, you know, look at call logs, uh, sales call logs, um, category data, which we usually bring in as well. And all of the tools are there to help synthesize and, and, and harness that data to come out the other side of it with, yes, strategy, which this is what's kind of interesting. There's, there was just some... There was a report this week, I think with Harvard's Bus- Harvard Business Review, which said that strategy is kind of one of the hardest things to replace with AI. And I've seen that so far. I mean, I'm also on a quest to, I hate this word, productize what I do, right? So the idea of a positioning agent is a very real thing and a real capability. But so far I've, I've not been able to recreate the connect the dots, the, the logic and magic that kind of has to happen to find that unique and transport, transformative space with which positioning occupies in terms of the output. So I'm thinking about the clients. Uh, there's so, there's so many great clients I've worked with. I kind of wanna be able to share some of the work. Um, one is UTIC as an example. Um, they're a, a telco-based, uh, identity business. They serve, um, they serve the publisher ecosystem as well as advertisers and agencies. And, um, landing on the articulation or the kind of, um, the branding almost of the, the positioning strategy as authentic consent, really getting to the heart of that positioning, that value that they create is differentiated capabilities that they have within market, just with those two words. Then obviously extending it out onto positioning assets with full GTM pitch or vision, mission and so on at that. But that, that connective kind of, um, that connective tissue is, is what AI can't quite do yet And so I, I don't feel safe in my, you know, role to a certain extent, and I'm looking to replace myself with technology, um, and with AI, but it's not quite there yet.
Speaker 1: Is that not the endless quest that we have where we try to make ourselves redundant in order to free ourselves up to do something e- you know, we've never done again?
Speaker 2: Well, yes and no. And I think, I think purpose in role is kind of maybe the distinction here. So I think understanding your purpose as, as a business and what, you know, the value that you're looking to create through the work that you do, that's really hard for AI to replicate. And I, and, and I think where AI excels is amplifying technical capability, and it's the gap between the two where I think there's still that, that, that distance and that white space which, which I as a kind of positioning expert can occupy within my field. But absolutely, you know, where I can replicate, um, a, a non-urgent task or something that's routine, um, and that it can help. I also... You know, I use, uh, AI as, and, and Claude and Perplexity, uh, specifically, as kind of sparring partners within the development process. But the actual value that I'm getting out of the LLMs in those models is through the human curiosity and the creativity that I apply in the questions that I ask it, and my ability to challenge and to get that exponential one plus one equals eleven out of that relationship.
Speaker 1: I just wanna go back to your point around the lovable example, and, you know, I think it's really interesting because for me, were you, were you describing a position or were you describing a, a sort of a, a strategy, you know, on positioning? Because if I think back to Mark Ritson for a second, and you know what he'll bang on about, and I say that with great respect, will be, uh, the, you know, the importance of, uh, consistency and, uh, re- repetitiveness.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Um, and then you've got someone you just described as almost, uh, adapting their positioning on a quarterly basis, and-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... will that slow down or will that speed up, you know?
Speaker 2: Uh, so the way to think about it, and I kind of mentioned Version as a business name is deliberately chosen, uh, with a little bit of creativity in the kind of naming of it, right? But it was deliberately chosen. You know, again, foresight, you know, is, is then being validated by the lovable example. But what I envisaged was that positioning would basically look more like an operating system, would look more like software. So software that you, you might build the core of it, V1 to V2 once, but you then iterate in Version in a kinda major minor patch kind of way, just as software is. Version one-- uh, version two point one point eight as an example, right? Where we've adapted the positioning and the positioning assets and outputs, but we've, we've changed the nuance and emphasis or the, the context which we mentioned about. We've changed the context of competitor that we're coming up against or the product value that we want to orientate it in the market. We've changed that because of the changing internal and external dynamics that exist. So, you know, in a nice way, Mark and I are both right, right? There's a kind of like... There is a consistency to it, and I think the lovable example isn't about schizophrenia or kind of, you know, throwing everything out that was produced before, but it's about careful, engineered, methodical development of your positioning over time, deliberately done, data-driven, with-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... assets and outputs that, uh, are controlled and distributed in that kind of similar way.
Speaker 1: I've got so many questions for you. This is great. Go for it.
Speaker 2: Favorite color, star sign, and can do them all.
Speaker 1: So, um, you know, let's take a, a, a, a kind of flip side to lovable, which is, uh, you know, a, a giant, you know, FMCG-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... um, and let's put them kind of-
Speaker 2: There's an i- irony, fast-moving consumer goods. Uh-
Speaker 1: Iro-
Speaker 2: ...or slow-
Speaker 1: No
Speaker 2: ... slow-moving-
Speaker 1: A slow mo-
Speaker 2: ... goods.
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah
Speaker 2: Settling.
Speaker 1: We'll have to re- retitle the category.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, but, but let, let's, let's now put th- that organization into the, the, uh, the mix.
Speaker 2: Do you know, I, I get asked also kind of like for a... So we had the definition of positioning, right? And a great example of positioning. And because I work in tech, I could be kinda giving you like a CDP example or a DMP or a DSP example. Let's kinda drop the acronyms. I think one of the best, one of the best examples to demonstrate the power of positioning and then the, you know, these principles that are developed around how positioning kind of evolves and how it's about your expectations of positioning, right? 'Cause it's, it's more than messaging. So think about water. Essentially in its base form, it's free, ubiquitous, it's everywhere, it's molecules, and what positioning does is turns that into a mindset. And if you think about Voss premium water, Evian, think about... Liquid Death is brilliant, right? So I've kinda got it back to FMCG here for you. Um, you know, what, what a brilliant way to kind of think about... And, and, and- Do you know what I mean? This is where, this is what positioning is. This is, this is really the, you know, such a great example where positioning is really close to marketing, and marketing is closer to business, the nature of business and business strategy than we all think. It's why I've moved positioning kind of out, um, and, and I get hired by CEOs and founders rather than CMAs or-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... CRAs is one. But if we think about Liquid Death, every signal of that brand, the way, the context with which it's setting, um, in the marketplace, the fact that it's in a can, the fact that it's called Liquid Death with kind of, you know, punk, goth, um, calligraphic writing, um, the fact that it, you know, it iterates very fast within its kind of product variance and the partnerships it does. It's a perfect case study as you're kind of showing the power of positioning in, you know, in, in, in that kind of fast-moving consumer goods CPG, uh, sector. Positioning is just one of these... It is one of those capabilities that is just, it's been hidden. It's always been there. Not everybody recognizes its value, but when it's unleashed in the way that it's intended, it's an absolute game-changing.
Speaker 1: So I introduced you as a positioning engineer, and you've created this concept of position and positioning engineering.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: So, so, and I, I might have hinted about it earlier when we spoke. So as it's a distinctive asset, it's a deliberate distinctive asset within my own positioning for Version. Um, but the engineering kind of side of it refers back to how we think about positioning as software and how we think about positioning as data-driven and something that can be iterated over time. The engineer- the engineering aspect is designed to make it feel distinct both in terms of process and output from the way the positioning might have been developed from either a messaging or branding or, or other kind of strategy components. A- and, and I, I, I desperately want it to be seen like that.
Speaker 1: And when you're diagnosing or you're just, you know, you, uh, you're just on your general kind of walk of life, you look at, you look at a business, um, how s- how fast, how soon, and how do you determine whether they've got their positioning right?
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's a great one, isn't it? 'Cause it's like, h- how do you know when you've got your positioning wrong, um, is, is kind of how you're looking at it. And, and I'm usually called in when those signals that I kind of referred to earlier are present, when business growth feels like it's hard rather than easy, when you've got... And I think one of the, you know, the misalignment internally is probably one of the biggest signals as well, where you've got sales telling one story, marketing trying to tell another in different channels, product with a roadmap that bears no resemblance to what the original inception of business strategy was for the business. Where you've got that, you know, those ingredients in play, you have internal misalignment, you have market confusion, and you have, you have the commercial signals of, you know, um, s- slow growth in a sense of, you know, uh, or, or, uh, cost inefficiency of your, of your activities. There's a- another, uh, great AI business of the time right now is Gamma. And the CEO of Gamma, um, was talking about how he defines kind of, uh, a positioning market fit is what I would call it, right? Not a big believer in product market fit. Positioning market fit being kind of slightly different, right? In, in emphasis. And he's saying any business that's got positioning market fit sees around fifty percent of their, their revenue and growth through inbound, which is like, that's the effortless part of, of business growth. That's not you kind of-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... that's not the hard graft of kind of grinding out sales within the marketplace or kind of cold calls and cold emails, and DM. This is where people are coming to you, understanding your business, understanding why they should choose you, and choosing you, and wanting to engage with you on a commercial discussion where you're shortlisted and so on.
Speaker 1: I love that, and that's when, that's when it's right.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And a gift that just keeps on giving, doesn't it?
Speaker 2: It, it... Yeah. I'm always wary about kind of saying, you know, positioning is a little bit like pornography. You kind of, you know it when you see it. And, and it's not like that. All, all the signs are there, the evidence is there. It's more of a fact-based discipline than, than people think.
Speaker 1: So I'm a CEO founder listening to this conversation.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking I can see some of the signals that he's talking about. What, what's the first step they need to take?
Speaker 2: Well, other than get in contact with, uh, Paul Evans, uh, at Version, um, I think you need to... If you've recognized those signals, you're, you're on the path, right? But I think there's kind of times when you wouldn't be positioning as well. So if you are a startup, like a proper startup, you're founder-led, it's an incredibly small scene, you're still trying to work out what the hell you're doing. Um, you're still trying to find some form of traction and, and fit within the marketplace. I would say keep going on that journey until you feel that you're more confident, that you might not be able to scale your positioning at that point, right? But you've found a semblance of where you think it might be landing and working. But you need to take it beyond your founder-led approach, right? Where you've kind of been, just been borrowing from your network. You need to scale through a team, your go-to-market team, and you need to be able to replicate and amplify that within the marketplace. So I typically work with businesses that are a million dollars in revenue size up to a hundred million dollars. Kind of it's a rough sweet spot. It's kind of-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... probably a big, big sweet spot as well. Um, but it, it reflects a certain kind of level of maturity and readiness to reflect on the journey that they've had and taken so far, and then want to go all in and go from version one to version two. 'Cause it's not, you know, it's not an easy thing to do. Positioning is actually relatively complex. I'm there to help. Invariably, the answer kind of lies within the business, right, as well.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: So I said, I said it's not about kind of opinion, and it's more about facts and evidence and, and it, and it really is that. So I'm, I'm looking at the fact and evidence that exists within business data and business information and case studies and, and so on like that, that every CEO and founder and growth team would know. But, you know, it, it is about taking a bit of a hard look at itself. The-- my role and Version's role, and I think the hard thing about doing positioning yourself as a business, as a CEO and founder or breaking, is the lack of objectivity and the lack of independence that you, you have. Being able to kinda look outside of yourself and, and say, "Look, I, I'm a massive fan of bowling pin strategy," if you know Geoffrey Moore and Crossing the Chasm as an example. What? Where people try and scale too fast. They go into multiple categories. They try and be everything to everybody, right? So in that scenario where the founder feels as though their product capability is right, and they've had some signals, commercial signals of traction. One of the jobs to be done is, is about finding that lead pin, is about finding that niche, that w- first pin, that first market to go hard in on. For me, it's actually still ad tech and martech and media because that's where I'm most well known, and it's where I have an, a kind of more infinite and natural knowledge of the ecosystem that I can bring to the positioning work, uh, that I do. However, I've built Version to be applicable to all B2B technology businesses from any vertical. But it's a deliberate choice, and it's a hard choice. It's quite an uncomfortable choice to niche down and say, "This is where I'm gonna go. I'm going after this vertical." But in doing so, you make growth easier. You knock down that first pin. It allows you to be known and successful within that vertical and then expand from there.
Speaker 1: Last question. What's the kind of positioning kind of pitfall you kind of see kind of all the time?
Speaker 2: Uh, so there's not recognizing the positioning, you know, not understanding what positioning is, not recognizing that it's needed. I was talking to a founder the other day. He was, like, eulogizing his seventeen percent year-on-year growth, headline growth. And I'm like, "That's fucking going backwards in this market if you're not, you know, in strong double-digit growth and if you're not, you know, seeing signs of, um, of real traction." And if he, he wasn't aware of the confusion in the marketplace around how his business was understood, I give, um, evidence to him. So, so I think, you know, being able to understand and see it, and then, and then go all in on it. Like, commit. Like, really go all in and embrace the, the visibility that a positioning exercise can give you. It is, uh... It's a-- I, I've just completed a, um, work. I, I can't say who it is, um, but a travel media business, uh, within the commerce media, um, category. And it, it's just been fascinating to have worked with the CEO and founder, understands, and he has a great clarity of ambition, which is great. Go-- He wanted to go from A to B, uh, um, within the kind of next eighteen months, and working with him on finding that, that balance. Because you need your positioning to work right now, right? It's not about positioning to investors, which they're looking for like a ten-year TAM.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Right? It is about positioning working now and delivering revenue right now. But within that concept, and, and this was a great example of, um, bowling pin strategy, being able to go hard with him on where he needs to play right now, but setting the context of a capability that allows him to grow into those future pins, pin two, pin three, and so on at that. Um, being able to recognize his roadmap and the prioritized capabilities that he needed to speak to and the value that they create right now, but again lay in the context of, of why those are addressing longer term category issues, all of that. He, fantastic guy and great business. Uh, I literally just spoke to him about ten minutes ago, which was really nice, a week after I handed over the work, and he's like, "It's sticking." And he's getting feedback from all stakeholders, internal, board, customers, saying, "This is great. This is... This works."
Speaker 1: Oh, I love stories like that.
Speaker 2: I get all emotional.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's brilliant to hear.
Speaker 2: Holding back the tears.
Speaker 1: And last one. Who has been the biggest sort of influence, you know, kind of on your journey?
Speaker 2: Well, no, we can't not say Mark Ritson in a kind of awkward slash kind of inverse kind of way 'cause he's done a great job for marketing overall. Um, I just wanted to... Let's say I wanted to build on his work. That's the most positive way of, of kinda looking at it. And, um, and I think, I think he's kinda handing that over to me. I'm learning from other CEOs and founders like Lovable and Gamma that I gave the examples of, who are practicing this right now in their, you know, in their product deployment and in the positioning that has to carry and marry to that and amplify that within, um, the categories that they operate in. So yeah, there's a kind of infinite number of, um, you know, people that I... I'm always learning. It's a really important part of the job. I don't know it all, but I think I've got a great platform with Version and what I'm trying to create, a great ambition that I'm working towards. Um, it's, you know, coming to these events is also great and just to be able to kind of listen and learn from everything that's around you.
Speaker 1: Paul, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker 2: No worries. Really cool. Thank you.