Episodes

Richard Davis: The Carbon P&L

Richard Davis, Co-Founder & CEO of 51toCarbonZero, on why decarbonising media has moved out of the press office and into the P&L, and what it costs the industry that no marketing leader carries a carbon KPI.

 ·  The Business of Marketing  · S6 E146  · 31 min

"Once you look at the big picture, there is no escape, really."

From running business strategy for a global media business to founding a venture-backed climate technology company in 2021, Richard Davis has watched sustainability travel from the press release into the plumbing. His argument in this episode is that climate has stopped being a corporate responsibility story and become a straightforward question of profit, risk and supply chain, and that marketing is the line in the P&L nobody has properly touched yet.

Before founding 51toCarbonZero, Davis was chief of business strategy for the global media business at Dentsu, a corporate development role that also carried the ESG remit, translating the climate challenge into the media business. What he saw there was plenty of good intention around net zero targets and none of the process, plan, governance, data or technology that any other transformation programme in corporate life would take for granted. He co-founded 51toCarbonZero in 2021 to bring that discipline to media and advertising with technology at the centre, making carbon data fast, repeatable, scalable and audit ready. The business is backed by Fuel Ventures, has offices in London and the US, and by his account takes data from more than 56 markets, working with agencies including Havas and Horizon Media, advertising technology companies including Magnite and Equative, and publishers including The Guardian.

Davis argues that the industry has left the phase of splashy announcements and entered the slower work of changing the pipes, and that the commercial case is now doing the persuading. He points to a UK heatwave that knocked out supermarket fridges for three days as a live example of climate hitting revenue, and traces the knock-on into agency, advertising technology and publisher budgets. He is blunt about the internal blockage his own annual survey of 200 senior marketers identified: enterprise decarbonisation plans rarely reach marketing, and there is no KPI for the chief marketing officer, so behaviour does not change. He wants sustainability normalised inside every creative brief rather than isolated in its own campaign, wants the industry to set common rules before it competes, and thinks the sector has made climate cold and data driven while inclusion was made desirable. On artificial intelligence he is short term cautious and long term optimistic. And on communication, his advice is contrarian: greenhushing helps nobody.

  • Davis built his case from the inside of the media business. As chief of business strategy for Dentsu's global media arm, with ESG in his remit, he found an industry full of net zero ambition and empty of the machinery that makes any other transformation work: process, plan, governance, data and technology. 51toCarbonZero, founded in 2021 and backed by Fuel Ventures, exists to supply that machinery, with a platform built to make carbon accounting repeatable, scalable and audit ready across agencies, advertising technology companies and publishers.
  • The conversation has moved from announcement to implementation. Davis describes a period a few years ago when everyone rushed to the press release, and contrasts it with today, where the work is unglamorous and internal. There is no shiny story in changing the pipes of a business, which is precisely why the quiet phase is the serious one. Less press office, more operations.
  • Climate now reads as a profit and loss item, not a corporate responsibility line. Davis uses a UK heatwave that took out supermarket fridges and freezers for three days as the clearest example: no yogurt, no fresh milk, no meal deal, and a real hit to the business. Because marketing budgets originate in those companies, the effect travels down the supply chain into agency, advertising technology and publisher revenue. His second example is insurance: flood risk models in parts of the US have repriced, which turns property into a potential stranded asset and a liability on the balance sheet. He sees other industries thinking this way daily and the media industry not yet thinking it at all, from 15 year office leases to the client portfolio mix.
  • The blockage inside advertisers is structural. Davis's annual survey of 200 senior marketers in Europe and the US identified the disconnect between enterprise sustainability strategy and marketing as a key barrier. Companies may have a decarbonisation plan and target that never reaches the marketing floor, and crucially there is no carbon KPI for the chief marketing officer. Incentives drive behaviour, and without them sustainability stays unprioritised. His fix on the creative side is normalisation: a reusable bottle on the table in every campaign and an electric vehicle instead of a combustion engine, rather than a separate campaign about sustainability.
  • On persuasion, Davis thinks the industry picked the wrong register. Inclusion was positioned as desirable and even cool, with visible benefits for people and business, while sustainability took a cold, data driven route. Data moves decisions, he says, and does not move people. He applies the same realism to communication: brands have gone from greenwashing to greenhushing, spooked by green claims regulation in Europe, and he expects six to eight months of legal education before confidence returns. His advice is to invest when the market is low and speak while others are silent. On artificial intelligence he accepts the short term energy cost, cites IEA modelling of AI energy costs and savings to 2035, in which efficiencies in industry, logistics and building management outweigh the energy AI consumes, a ten year projection he treats with caution, and argues that in the meantime the environmental cost and the financial cost point the same way.
  1. 01 Decarbonising the media supply chain
  2. 02 Climate risk in the P&L
  3. 03 Carbon KPIs for marketing leaders
  4. 04 Green claims and greenhushing
  5. 05 AI energy cost and payback

Key Exchanges

05
01 You have spent your career helping businesses grow. What is the commercial argument here?

That your assets might be stranded assets very soon, uh, which is a liability on your P&L or your balance sheet.

In media and advertising it is new business, new business, new business, so the question is always how do I use this to differentiate and win more pitches. That is fine, but there is another reality: how this hits the P&L today. Take insurance. There are places in the US where flood risk has gone up significantly because the models feeding premiums now price in climate change. That means assets can become stranded assets, a liability on the balance sheet. Other industries think about this daily. Does my premium go up? Do I move location? Do I move equipment out of the basement before it floods? We are not thinking that way. Data centres matter, but so do 15 year office leases near a waterfront, business travel disruption, and the client portfolio mix: which sectors are exposed, and should new business be pointed at more future-proof industries, especially on long-term deals? That normal business thinking I have not yet seen in this industry. I am positive it is coming, and that is why we exist.

02 What can we learn from other initiatives, such as inclusion, where the industry has driven behaviour change?

It's, uh, not just the right thing to do, it's the cool thing to do.

What worked with inclusion is that it was positioned and communicated as desirable. It is not just the right thing to do, it is the cool thing to do, with visible benefits for the business and for the people involved, a clear win-win. With sustainability we took a colder, data driven approach. Data move decisions, but data do not really move people. You need to move hearts as well, and I think we have missed that trick.

03 Tell me about you. Why do you exist, and what problem do you solve?

There was no process, plan, governance, data tech that you would use in any transformation program in any other part of corporate life in climate

Before 51toCarbonZero I was chief of business strategy for the global media business at Dentsu, with ESG in my remit, translating the climate challenge into media. What I saw was a lot of good intention about setting and hopefully hitting net zero targets, and none of the process, plan, governance or data technology you would use in any transformation programme anywhere else in corporate life. So the inception of the business was about bringing transformation best practice into climate for media and advertising with technology at the heart of it: a platform that makes the process and data management fast, repeatable, scalable and audit ready, brings the data to life for stakeholders inside and outside the business, and gives people the support to bring discipline to climate work.

04 Does this come back to needing a metric that can be trusted, and the data to underpin it?

I think we've been culpable as an industry to try and crack the whole thing.

As an industry we have a tendency to overcomplicate things. There are simple ways of looking at the impact of a marketing services company, from agency to advertising technology to publisher. We have been culpable in trying to crack the whole thing at once, every step in the chain, wanting the full view immediately. Start with your own operations. Then look at your tier one suppliers and ask them to do the same journey and meet the same credentials you are meeting. They will ask their suppliers, one step removed, and that creates the effect we have seen in food and beverage, where you work one step at a time until you reach the person growing the crop. You do not get there on day one. You get there eventually.

05 AI is dominating every conversation. How do you see it changing sustainability and carbon management?

And I think the good news is that the environmental cost also equals a financial cost in this case.

AI has an environmental impact: data centres are energy intensive, and building them is energy and materials intensive. The IEA study on energy costs and savings of AI between now and 2035 says a lot of energy goes into building data centres and running models in the short term, but applying AI to industry, logistics and building management, the three key emissions hotspots, delivers efficiencies that outweigh what AI consumes. Net net, less carbon. It is a 10 year prediction, so accuracy is uncertain, but long term I believe AI is a positive game changer. Short term we take responsibility: use smaller models for simple queries, do not use it for everything, ask data centres for renewable tariffs or on-site renewables, reduce the tokens in your input. The good news is that the environmental cost also equals a financial cost here. We are moving from AI for the sake of AI to AI for a reason, where there is an ROI.

S6 E146Season & Episode
31 minDuration
2021 Year 51toCarbonZero was founded
56+ Markets feeding data into the platform

"Greenwashing sometimes is better than green nothing"

Hear Richard on
The Business of Marketing
Season 6 Episode 146 31 min
Read the full transcript
Lightly edited for readability.

Speaker 1: So hello, and welcome to Business Marketing, recorded live here at Cannes Lions 2026. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Richard Davis, who's the co-founder and CEO of 51toCarbonZero. Richard spent his career at the intersection of business growth, media marketing, sustainability. Having previously led global business strategy at Dentsu Media, he now works with some of the world's leading brands, agencies, and media organizations to help them navigate one of the defining business challenges-

Speaker 2: Mm

Speaker 1: ... of our time, which is the transition to a low carbon economy, and in this sector too. Richard, welcome to The Business of Marketing.

Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: So look, here we are. We're sitting in Cannes, an industry that flies tens of thousands of people around the world every year.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yep.

Speaker 1: Produces huge events, huge campaigns, and increasingly talks about sustainability. How much progress has the marketing industry actually made?

Speaker 2: It's a very interesting question, and, uh, um, as you know, the industry loves to talk about, uh, what's new, what's progressive, and what can be done, uh, in the future. And I think sustainability has been on the agenda for now a few years. And we have seen a progress from, uh, ambition to action. Talking about Cannes and people coming to, to the event, um, just a little, uh, little story. We came down by train from London. Uh, it's not like, uh... You can't do the same if you come from the States, obviously. But it's, you know, every little helps. And we've seen quite a few people on the train down to Cannes, uh, from the industry, uh, taking the same approach. So, so we believe there is genuine, uh, uh, um, genuine intention to move forward and take those little actions that can make a difference in our personal lives, but also in the business. How has the conversation evolved? I think couple of years ago, there was almost like a rush to the PR, to the press release. Everyone wanted to go out and say, "We're doing amazing stuff," or, "We plan to do amazing stuff." But then the hard work begins, and that's where you go into almost like business as usual mode. So there's no new shiny story maybe to talk about because you're implementing things, uh, and changing the pipes in the business. And that's where we are today. So a bit less in the kind of the press office, but much more within the operations of the business.

Speaker 1: And in our sector, do you think sustainability has kind of moved beyond sort of being a CSR issue to being a, a business issue at the very center?

Speaker 2: So I, I think to respond to the question, we need to look at, um, what's happening in the business world more, more widely, um, where sustainability or CSR, um, is moving, uh, across, uh, to the entire board as a key, key business challenge. Why is that? If you look at the climate challenge, how climate can impact, uh, a business, uh, its operations, its sourcing, its logistics, its travel, it has got a real effect on the profitability and the sustainability, no pun intended, of the operations. Example, uh, heatwave in the UK in May. There's another one going on at the moment, as we know. But let's say... So last month, uh, a first heatwave of, uh, of the, of, uh, this summer. The major retailers in the UK, the likes of Tesco, M&S, uh, uh, Sainsbury, all their fridges and freezers went off. Their condenser at the roof, uh, of the supermarkets couldn't cope with the heat, which means for three days, you couldn't buy a yogurt or fresh milk, uh, or your favorite, uh, meal deal. That has got a real impact on their business. The knock-on effect is that, of course, for the media marketing advertising industry, there will be a knock-on effect in budgets for agencies, advertising technology, and publishers. So if we take this from, say, the source of where media marketing budgets are coming from, this is a real business, uh, challenge which companies are treating with care and attention. The way that, that this is translating into the media supply chain, they want their media marketing partners to take the same approach because if they don't decarbonize, they will not decarbonize their own operations, which means their business will i- be impacted even more.

Speaker 1: What conversations are you hearing in Cannes this year that maybe you weren't hearing, say, three years ago?

Speaker 2: I think that people from, um, you know, let's talk about this, let's make it like a big splash, into, okay, what is the risk and the opportunity? How do we look at how this topic impacts the bottom line? How do we look at, uh, our data centers and where they are located? How do we look at the risk of flooding or droughts? Is this gonna impact how our data is stored and readily available for our customers and clients? Um, is this gonna impact the, um, the day-to-day of how we service our campaigns? Do we need to put pressure on, uh, the big tech companies as well as an industry to make sure that they are sustainable so we are sustainable as well? So I think there's a, there's been a, a shift in how, again, this topic has become, um, part of the risk management agenda in, uh, in every business.

Speaker 1: Let's sort of just talk about you for a minute. Sort of like tell me a little bit more about kind of why you exist-

Speaker 1: ... as a human being.

Speaker 2: Ask my mom and my father, but

Speaker 1: And what problem do you solve?

Speaker 2: Yeah. So it might be useful to give a bit of background of, uh, you know, my kind of career and where I come from. So before starting 51toCarbonZero, I was chief of business strategy for the global media business at Dentsu. Um, call it corporate development, uh, to make it shorter. Part of my remit was also ESG or the EOVSG really, so how to translate, uh, the climate challenge into the media, into the media business. And what I observed at the time is, was exactly what we were talking about before. There was a, a lot of good intention out in, out in the industry about, uh, setting and hopefully achieving so-called net zero targets, but there was no process, plan, governance, data tech that you would use in any transformation program in any other part of corporate life in climate. So the whole inception of the business, it was, how do we bring transformation, uh, best practice into climate in the media advertising industry, putting technology at the heart of it? So having a platform which makes the whole process and data management process fast, repeatable, scalable, audit-ready, importantly, and bring the data to life to stakeholders inside and outside the business, while providing that hand-holding and support to bring the discipline into climate for media and advertising.

Speaker 1: And where are you on your journey?

Speaker 2: Hmm. So we, we founded the business in 2021. We are venture-backed. Uh, Fuel Ventures are our main, uh, institutional investor. We have offices in London, uh, and the US. We work with companies really across any geography because data that comes into our system comes from, I think, at the latest count, 56-plus different markets. We work with, uh, within the ecosystem with, um, agencies from, you know, Havas, uh, to Horizon Media in the US, uh, and many others, uh, down to advertising technology, the Magnite of the world, uh, the, um, the Equative of the world, et cetera, et cetera, um, down to publishers like, uh, The Guardian, for example, is one of our customers. Um, so we are trying to bring the ecosystem together. We're trying to make sure that the data flows across the ecosystem because in technical terms, your scope three is my scope one and two, which means, uh, you are part of my supply chain, so-called scope three, so I need to account for your carbon within my carbon, which is my scope one and two.

Speaker 1: Got it. And why, why, why kind of marketing? You know, why, why m- do marketeers matter in kind of climate transition?

Speaker 2: So there's a, um, a number of things really. Um, so first of all, marketing spend is a big line in the P&L of, uh, major companies out there, which means, uh, the moment that a company looks at their enterprise emissions, media and marketing will be something that they will want to look into because, uh, of the amount of spend that goes into that, uh, uh, line in the P&L. There is not a lot of, uh, care, attention, and love for the industry. Uh, you know, companies are focused on, you know, solving their cocoa beans first and, uh, where their logistics is, are coming from. But the marketing side of it, how do they work with the likes of, uh, the Googles of the world or the Amazons of the world, is equally important, and that conversation is now coming to life. And if we think about the big tech, uh, especially, if all the advertisers came together and put pressure on them, they would have to move forward because their revenue model is advertising at the end of the day.

Speaker 1: You say that sustainability credentials are the new creative brief. What do you mean?

Speaker 2: I say that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: You do, yeah. On your website. Um-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... what does that, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 2: Yeah. So we mean that, um, sustainability needs to become part of, uh, a normalized behavior in any creative brief. Uh, rather than having a separate campaign on, uh, you know, refilling your water bottle, you should have a, in every campaign, a reusable water bottle on the table rather than a plastic bottle. Uh, you should have an EV rather than a combustion engine car. So it's part of any creative brief-

Speaker 1: Got it

Speaker 2: ... and it should become the norm, and at that point, it becomes, uh, an accepted behavior and a desirable behavior, which is really important. We were with, uh, one of our customers earlier on in the day and they were saying, "How do we change this conversation from a, a hygiene factor to a desirable behavior and a desirable topic?"

Speaker 1: Do you think sort of brands and marketeers, particularly in those brands and, and the wider ecosystem, underestimate sort of the, the power of their influence?

Speaker 2: I think they do. Uh, I think they do also because of the pressure they are, uh, receiving from their own boards. Um, we just ran a survey asking 200 senior marketers in Europe and the US, um, about their sentiment and views on sustainability. We run this every year. And one of the key barriers that they have identified in, uh, embracing more sustainable behaviors in their marketing offices is the disconnect between the enterprise sustainability strategy and marketing. So the advertiser might have, uh, a decarbonization plan and target, but that doesn't necessarily encompass yet marketing. More importantly, there's no KPI for the CMO around, uh, sustainability. And if, and as we know, incentives, uh, drive behaviors, uh, and, uh, those behaviors at the moment are not prioritized because of those lack of incentives.

Speaker 1: And how can sort of the industry, and what are you doing to help the industry kind of almost convene, um, to basically kind of solve this problem together as one?

Speaker 2: Can you repeat the question?

Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2: Sorry, just to make sure.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm, I mean, I was chatting to the Advertising Association, um, this morning. Um, and you know, we were talking about Ad Net Zero-

Speaker 2: Sure

Speaker 1: ... and we were talking about the power of the Advertising Association in the UK-

Speaker 2: Yes

Speaker 1: ... particularly, right, with its convening powers, right? It's the body of bodies.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: You know, it's the closest thing to a regulator in our, in the UK anyway. So it was, it was just sort of like, you know, how, how can we be kind of s- how can we convene-

Speaker 2: Right

Speaker 1: ... together, right? Sort of... I can ask again, but is this a good question? You know, I-d-

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. I'll ask the question again. Try and, I'll try and make it more clear. So how can the industry kind of work together as one, convene everyone together to, to help make this a reality?

Speaker 2: I think by nature, our, our industry is very competitive, you know. Uh, um, and, uh, to pivot to a pre-competitive mindset in this industry is, is, is quite a shift. However, we are seeing industry bodies like the Ad Net Zeros or the Advertising Association setting the minimum standards for what sustainability means, uh, in, uh, in the advertising industry. And we're seeing these standards being created by all the different players sitting at the same table, which is a bit of a first in a way within, within, uh, within the industry. It's the same thing we've seen happening in other industries as well. Uh, if you don't have a common playground in food or construction or, uh, any other industry, um, you can't really play the game if you don't have the same rules. I think we are doing the same here now. Um, we are seeing also regulation coming in, uh, on, especially on the communication side. So green claims, uh, uh, the green claim regulation in Europe is now telling us when we can say carbon zero or net zero and when we cannot, uh, which is in most cases really.

Speaker 2: Uh, which makes things more complex-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... uh, because people then are kind of retreating from communicating 'cause they're afraid to kind of get it the wrong way. But there is regulation coming in, or that is now live. We're seeing, um, industry standards coming together with all the holding companies and the different players, uh, coming together. We're seeing more from the brands as well, the WFA and other, like, uh, advertising bodies, uh, advertisers bodies, uh, setting standards. So, uh, we're seeing good progress. Uh, and I think we cannot achieve this unless we do this together.

Speaker 1: Yeah. 100% agree. What, what do you think you, we can learn from other kind of successful initiatives? For example, inclusion, right? You know, I think, you know, there could be some debate about how far we've come with regard to-

Speaker 2: Mm

Speaker 1: ... kind of, you know, diversity, equality, and inclusion. But that has definitely kind of permeated kind of, you know, our, our sector. Is there anything that we can kind of learn from other kind of topics and issues like that, that where we need to drive change of behavior?

Speaker 2: I think something that has been really successful with inclusion is, uh, back to a point that we referenced earlier just slightly, is, um, it has been, uh, um... It's be- it's very desirable. It has been, uh, positioned and communicated in a very desirable way. It's, uh, not just the right thing to do, it's the cool thing to do. There are benefits for the business. There are benefits for the people involved. You can feel that is, uh, the right thing, uh, that it would be a win-win. I think with sustainability, we have taken a more cold, data-driven approach. Um, and you know, data, data move decision, but data don't really move people.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: You need to move the hearts as well, and I think we've missed-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... the trick there probably.

Speaker 1: It's a really, really great point. Um, we'll come... I wanna come back to that in a minute. If there was one thing that sort of every CMO, every agency leader, every CEO of ad tech, martech could do differently, what would it be?

Speaker 2: Think about how this, uh, uh, topic impacts your client's business, your business, and your personal future. Once you look at the big picture, there is no escape, really. I don't think you can retreat and do nothing about it.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's talk about the business case a little bit.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: You've obviously, you know, kind of come from, you know, a career prior to this where you've been helping businesses grow. How important and what is the kind of the commercial argument?

Speaker 2: It's very important. Um, I think the, the, the interesting thing is to look how different industries look at the sa- the same topic. This industry, media advertising, everything, new business, new business, new business. So the topic is always how do I use this to differentiate? How do I use this to win more, uh, pitches? How do I use this to look different and better? That's great. But there's also another reality, which is what we see, um, across other industries, which is around how does this impact, uh, the P&L today now. Example, insurance cost. There are, uh, places in the US where the risk of flooding has gone up significantly in the last few years because the new model that fuel insurance premiums show that climate change has now increased the risk of flooding. What does that mean? That your assets might be stranded assets very soon, uh, which is a liability on your P&L or your balance sheet. Apologies. Um, other industries are thinking about this day in, day out. They're thinking about how does my premium insurance cost go up?

Speaker 1: Mm.

Speaker 2: Do I need to move location? Do I need to do things differently? Do I need to move my equipment from the basement, if it is gonna be flooded very soon, to the second floor? We are not thinking the same in the media advertising industry when, um, when it comes to data centers, we talked about it before, absolutely important, but also in offices. You got sometimes 15 years leases, and, uh, that lease might be not the best choice for you because, uh, you know, near the waterfront or there are like, there's a lot of risk, uh, of, uh, uh, extreme weather events, so might want to move somewhere else. Uh, disruption in business travel, obviously. Um, but also again, how our client portfolio mix looks like. Uh, is our client portfolio gonna be affected by, um, climate change? Uh, if so, which sectors are more in danger? And should we shift, uh, our new business efforts to, to other, uh, more future-proof, um, type of industries or clients in those industries, especially if we're, you know, closing long-term deals. Um, so all that business thinking that you would do, you know, uh, day in, day out on other topics, I've not seen yet in this, uh, in this industry. But I'm very positive that it's coming-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... and that's why we, we exist, back to your existential question.

Speaker 1: What are the characteristics of brands and companies that are getting this right?

Speaker 2: There are, like, two, um, use cases or two main drivers, I would say, when we receive a call. Um, one is, uh, firefighting, and the other one is, like, bui- building a bridge to the future. The firefighting is we got a client or a prospect who has asked a question on what we're doing in this space. Uh- Which might be the very basics, or sometimes some clients are now asking some really progressive questions. Um, they call us up because they need to find a solution, and we jump on the case straight away. So that's, like, use case number one. Use case number two is more of a, an internal trigger, which is, uh, we looked at this, uh, we heard about this, uh, we looked at this, uh, something that probably is important for us, but we're not super sure. Can you come in and have a chat? And then, uh, uh, hopefully they're convinced this is a very important topic. And then in a more, uh, orderly manner, you can start to build a plan which, you know, might, might have big ambitions, but it's always, you know, starting small and then building over time, which is the best way to do it 'cause you don't want to... You don't want and you can't disrupt the business, and you don't want to drive people away from their day-to-day. You want to do this in a, in a paced, uh, responsible, and a informed way.

Speaker 1: There's obviously been, you know, a sig- a sort of significant kind of shift from a geopolitical kind of-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... perspective. Um, without being specific, I'm sure you catch my drift.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: Um, how are you responding to that, and how are, are you, I suppose in a sense, sort of, uh, using that as an opportunity to... That tension, I suppose-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... in a sense, to kind of evolve the narrative? I mean, you, you cited some great examples of, you know, continually kind of, you know, strengthening the business case-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... behind, you know-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... the topic itself and the issue itself. But tell me a little bit about kind of what that has, that tension has done to the narrative and, and how you think about-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... taking this to market.

Speaker 2: So it has forced us to be more practical in our approach and business-driven, as you, as you mentioned. It has forced us to take out the ideology in a way, you know. It's just the right thing to do, to... It's the right thing to do for the business, which I think is very important. From our kind of business strategy point of view-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... rebalancing, uh, the geographic footprint of the business, uh, between our, our different, uh, um, geographic areas. So looking at being in defensive mode maybe, where the conversation is, uh, a bit in retreat, and being in a offensive mode where we know there's more opportunity. But also diversification. Um, so not looking just at climate and carbon, but looking at a responsibility and purpose more, more widely, which, uh, is a more warm and, uh, again, desirable way of looking at this. So, so all these... So stress testing an hypothesis is good. Uh-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... so I am, I welcome the challenge in a way, um, because you need to also rejuvenate what you're doing-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... uh, constantly, and, uh, and you try to, to, to stress test, uh, what you're doing and to be challenged. And, uh, so it's a very welcome challenge, and I think, uh, the world is moving to the next stage.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: Um, you know, there's a media reality, the headlines, and there's a reality in what people think and do. Um, an election doesn't change, uh, global sentiment overnight, obviously. So people still believe in the same values, uh, consumers, customers, businesses still believe in the same values. They might talk a bit about it less or in a less vocal way, so the language has changed, or it's been, uh, put on pause. But that's also because again, we move from that like rush the pr- press release to let's do the work. Um, so that's how we've been approaching, uh, approaching the whole challenge.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's really interesting. I just wanna talk a little bit about sort of that, the people point you make and particularly kind of in relation to sort of, you know, greenwashing, transparency-

Speaker 2: Mm

Speaker 1: ... trust sort of thing. You know, some people think, you know, like you said, sort of, you know, that, um, maybe consumers are a little, uh... How do I describe this? Kind of skeptical maybe, or, um, sort of they, they're not sure about sort of, you know, who, who potentially and what to kind of believe. Um, you know, maybe brands are a little bit sort of nervous about-

Speaker 2: Mm

Speaker 1: ... kind of making claims because of the, the comeback, you know, the, the, the greenwashing point, I guess. How do you kind of navigate through that, you know, as, you know... And, and obviously that's a messaging, you know, communications piece, right? In some ways, you know, to affect that kind of, that behavioral change. How do companies kind of navigate communicating progress without sort of falling into the trap of being accused of greenwashing-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... and so forth?

Speaker 2: So, I mean, we live in a trust poor-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... era. Uh, and, and the sustainability piece kind of plays into this wider piece about, uh, people don't know what to believe, uh, and, um, you know, what's science and what not, what's not science, et cetera, et cetera. Um, what we have seen is, uh, uh, companies going from, uh, uh, greenwashing to greenhushing, if you've heard the term, which... The term, which is like, uh, I will not talk about this because I'm afraid I might get it wrong. Um, a bit controversially for people in kind of my industry, but I'm like of the advice that greenwashing sometimes is better than green nothing.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: So, you know, at least trying to say something out there, and even if it's not perfect, you are kind of promoting, uh, or, uh-

Speaker 1: Agreed

Speaker 2: ... the, the, the discourse. Uh, so we have seen customers and, uh, and brands, uh, retreating and going into greenhushing. Um, the new regulation coming up, especially in the EU, is not helping that kind of sentiment of, uh, being cautious. Uh, so I think there will be another six, eight months where kind of brands need to get their head around with the lawyers really.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Uh, we were with, uh, uh, a few of them earlier, um, in the day. Uh, they had like a, a full day of, uh, law and advertising, and there was a section on green claims. Uh, so there will be a six, eight months of education I think in the industry about what you can do, what you can't do, what you want to say, you... What you don't want to say. Um, and of course there's a level of subjectivity-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... 'cause it's all about what the customer perceives when you say cer- certain things. But I think we'll see this trend, uh, still in place for, uh, a few months. Then again, we'll see things turning around a bit. My advice to, to our partners and customers always, uh- Invest when the market is low. So if no one is talking about this, this is your, your time to talk about it, you know? Um, so same advice I would give to any business in any area, really.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Uh, this is the time to stand out.

Speaker 1: Buy the dip.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: I love that. Um, and g- kind of it makes me think, it sort of goes back to a point around sort of, you know, what's needed is, is, is a, is a metric, right? You know-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... and, and really measure, you know, a, a metric that can be trusted, you know, to, to, you know, and the data underpinning it to, to, to sort of rebuild that trust.

Speaker 2: It is. Um, I think as a, as an industry, we have a tendency to overcomplicate things sometimes.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: Um, there are simple ways of looking at the impact of, uh, uh, you know, a marketing, uh, service company, uh, again, from agency to ad tech to publishers and everyone else in the mix. Uh, we... I think we've been culpable as an industry to try and crack the whole thing. All the, like, gazillion tops in the chain, I want to get a full view. No, start with your own view. Start with what you are doing yourself, your own operations. Then look at your tier one suppliers, the people you work with. Ask them to talk to their suppliers, and do the same journey and same credentials that you are doing yourself. Ask them to do it, and they will do that with the supplier removed one step. They will do it with, with supplier removed one step, and this will create that positive effect that we are seeing in industries like, uh, food and beverage, uh, where, you know, you go s- one step at a time down to the field finally to look at the person growing the crop. But you don't do it on day one. You get there, uh, eventually.

Speaker 1: We've gotta talk about it, and you've sort of alluded to it somewhat already, but sort of AI is dominating, you know-

Speaker 2: Mm

Speaker 1: ... every conversation and so on. Um, how do you see it sort of changing sustainability and carbon management?

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. So obviously, AI's got an environmental impact.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Um, uh, data centers are energy intensive, uh, but also building the data center is energy and, uh, uh, material in- uh, material intensive. Um, there's an interesting study by the IEA, the International Energy Agency-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... which looks at the projected energy costs and savings of AI between, between now and 2035, and what they say is, uh, in the short term, lots of energy will go into building more data centers and running these, these models. However, and this, uh, it's, it's a 10-years prediction, so it's difficult to say how accurate it can be. At the same time, they say that the application of AI to things like industry, logistics, and, uh, building management, which are the three key hotspots in energy, uh, emissions, the efficiencies you will gain by applying AI to run these three things better, so better logistics, better way of producing goods, better... and designing goods, and better way of running, uh, heating, cooling, and, uh, uh, powering, uh, buildings, will outweigh the energy required by AI. So net-net, it should be a positive gain, i.e., less carbon, in this case. Um, so there's a, there's a, there's a stream of thought which I think I believe in, which says long-term AI will be, um, a positive, uh, uh, game changer. Short-term, I think, though-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... we still need to take responsibility, so we need to do things that we can do right now to make that impact as small as possible while we wait for these benefits, uh, to come to place. So what does that mean? You know, using smaller models when you don't need, like, a large language model for, uh, a simple query. It means maybe not using it every time for every single thing, not for your shopping list. I think you should know about that and just do your groceries. Um, it means, uh, um, looking at the, um, you know, the data centers again that you use and ask them to be on renewable tariffs, or even better, have renewables at the data center per se. Um, reducing, uh, the number of tokens that you use in the input. I mean, there are a number of things-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... behavioral and more like, uh, on the hard tech side that can be done today.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I think the good news is that the environmental cost also equals a financial cost in this case.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So, um, I think we're moving beyond the initial hype of AI for the sake of AI. We're now moving to the second phase of AI for a reason-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... and when there's an ROI. Um, and that will bring, uh, again, environmental, but financial costs, uh, uh, financial, um, benefits as well.

Speaker 1: What's the most exciting development you're watching right now?

Speaker 2: So from a sustainability point of view, uh, I'm very excited about, um, all the improvements in, uh, capacity, but also cost efficiency of, uh, energy storage. So the cost of batteries is going down significantly, uh, which means, uh, we can probably have a fully renewable, uh, energy system without changing the grid. Let me explain. If we have batteries installed in every real estate asset, every ba- every car runs on EVs, and they're plugged into the grid and to your house, then you can start to store energy in a distributed way, and you don't need to rebuild the entire energy grid to make renewables work. Uh, if that happens, then it's, it's gonna be a game changer for the environment, but also for our energy security because then we will produce energy, uh, on site where we are without relying on people that don't particularly like us. Uh, so that's from, like, a wider sustainability point of view. When it comes to media marketing advertising specifically, I think where we will see kind of the next phase of, uh, of evolution, which I'm really excited about, is that application of AI for more sustainable, um, development and production of, uh, creative assets, storage of assets as well. Then I've read a stat that 50% of video assets sit idle on some servers somewhere in the world, still available, but never used. So just the capacity of, uh, churning through a lot of data to find the inefficiency in the ecosystem will be a game changer for being more sustainable for media and advertising.

Speaker 1: Richard, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. Thank you for joining us on the Business of Marketing.

Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.