Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business Marketing. My name's John Horsley, the host of the show today. We're recording live at Cannes Lions. Uh, I'm delighted to be joined by Pierce Cook-Anderson, who is managing director advertising at the Mail Metro Media. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, John.
Speaker 1: Um, as a starter for 10, it'd be really great to understand what attracted you to the world of, uh, advertising, uh, and media.
Speaker 2: Um, I started my career 21 years ago, funnily enough, on the features department of the Mail on Sunday. I was a journalist researcher. Genuinely thought I was gonna become a journalist. Um, I probably spent six months there, and then I realized that actually I was more interested in the business of publishing, um, rather than the actual day-to-day of journalism. Albeit, being on the hunt, on the chase was something that I really enjoyed, and that's not dissimilar to sales, quite frankly. So from there I went into Future publishing. I actually found this, this company myself. I didn't know what Future publishing was, but I knew that sales and the commercial understanding of the newspaper magazines business was something that I would have to do. That is how I ended up in media sales. I did that for 10 years. I worked at Future, um, Sky, uh, I was at, uh, the FT, Newsweek, and then I saw the money flowing out from publishers, you know, these direct IOs that we used to do and these, these partnerships moving into this brave new world of ad tech, and it started with Saxis, and I remember doing a deal with Saxis at Newsweek, and then it was with Teads, and then it was a company called Kiosked that you might remember-
Speaker 1: Sure
Speaker 2: ... in image ads, and I was like, "Wow." And the money just comes in after you do the commercial deal. And I thought, "That's where I need to go. Follow the money." So I moved into ad tech, um, started with OpenX as an SSP. That was the rise of header bidding. The timing was absolutely perfect. Uh, gave me fantastic exposure to ad tech with a market-leading company. Then Smart Adserver it was before it became Equative. They came to the UK market looking for a country head. Um, and I thought, "Okay, yeah, that makes sense." And with the ad server component as well, I thought that was interesting. Moved to Smart Adserver, became Equative. We bought a number of different companies. Again, still growing, growing, growing across all different formats, including CTV. Fantastic exposure. Then I moved to sell-side curation, which has been sort of, I guess, the, the theme that, uh, over the last 24 months perhaps, uh, with first-party data, third-party data, enriching audiences with Audigent, which again was bought by Experian, um, at the end of 2020, I think it was four. And then now I'm back in publishing 20, 21 years later. So, uh, i- it's, it's one hell of a, a journey, as they say.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm, I'm thinking that.
Speaker 2: But it is good to be back-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... I have to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I- I've always looked at Future as a very innovative publisher.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Am I, am I correct in, in thinking that? And is there anything that you took on that journey that you, you learnt back then?
Speaker 2: Interesting. I, I, I would, I would definitely agree with you about Future. And then I think it was a... Was it a FTSE 100 or certainly FTSE 250? I'm-
Speaker 1: 250
Speaker 2: ... but I'm thinking it was... Yeah, 250. Uh, Stevie Spring was the CEO back in the day when I was there. We had a big London presence. Um, I think we had something like 100 titles. So yes, it was very innovative. We were already in passion points and niche audiences and blending that together, and I think, you know, over the years it went down, it went up, and then it skyrocketed, um, under various different leaderships and guises. I think Claire Dove, who's the commercial director, is still there. She was my boss back in the day, um, and I think what I remember taking away from Claire was just that ability to be focused and, and be really, like, laser-focused on what you're doing. Because although media can be fun, and especially was fun then, um, if your eye is off the prize and you are not concentrating, you will miss the opportunities. And it would be, I remember her saying to me, it was, "Don't, don't be like that. Use your talents. You could be really, really good at this business, but you need to be laser-focused on it." And I think, you know, when I look at Claire, how long has she been there now? Her career has been, I mean, sh- it's one of the longest careers in our industry. So that was really good advice. So I'd say I took that from, from Claire, uh, and from Future publishing. I j- I just, I think they were way ahead of the game in terms of those audiences and the passion, passion audiences. Um, and I think everything is coming back to that now, interestingly.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you've described this, you know, amazing ad tech journey that you've been on. You know, certainly worked with many of the household names within that category. What led you to taking a step back into publishing again, um, from the, I guess, the ad side of, of the publishing world?
Speaker 2: Yes. Um, honestly, I think we're at an existential moment, and I think it's a, a pivotal moment with the rise of AI and zero-click search. Um, I think the changing behaviors of, of people, how we consume media, you know, it started 20 years ago, 25 years ago with social, you know, the digitization of the internet, um, and I think it's just really accelerated and consolidated when we use LLMs. Uh, and it's blended into social now, so it's all become one thing of how do we monetize audiences and reach audiences off-site? It doesn't, doesn't necessarily have to be on our platform. Um, but that is also a threat. It's a huge threat to independent publishers as we know it, especially in the mid to long tail. And I think because it started out and my mother was a journalist and I've had journalism in my blood in content and editorial, um, and I've made money for publishers over the last 10 years as an SSP, it's my job to make money for publishers. I really do have a natural affiliation with publishers and quality content and journalism, and I'm passionate about that, and I felt as though now was the time for me to really go back- Um, and lead the future-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... uh, at Mail Metro Media, which is exactly what we're trying to do, and lead from the front.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So that's why I'm back.
Speaker 1: Brilliant. Do you feel that, you know, AI, you know, it's, it's risks creating sameism. I'm gonna use the word sameism. I know it's not a word, but, uh, you could say slop, pulp, something else, um, and quality content will always rise to the top.
Speaker 2: Do I agree with that statement?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I, I do. I do agree with it, and fundamentally I do agree with it. Um, you know, I think the moment you have premium-ness and quality, uh, which is essentially creating scarcity because not everyone can do that, in any, in anything. It doesn't... It could be painting, it could be a watch brand, whatever it is. Um, you know, and then there's a value attributed to that where it's more expensive than the mainstream. I think, I think that fits in everything, cars, journalism. And I think we are at that moment where people are willing to pay for more premium trusted content, um, that they can believe that isn't slop. Um, you know, I, but I think that there is a slant in journalism that you pay for as well because that's what you affiliate with. But then the mid and long tail, um, you know, what is the angle? Where is the original content? And if it's just being written and scraped by LLMs, the inherent trust is gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And, and we see that a lot. You know, the, the feedback is that news publishers are the most trusted brands, uh, along with linear TV. You know, these are the most trusted news sources and content sources in our industry. Um, brand performance is better, return on ad spend is higher when you have news brands involved in your, in your spend, in your marketing spend. And, and why is that? Because as human beings, we want to go to authoritative, trusted sources for our news or for the stories that we're interested in, and it could be entertainment, it could be lifestyle. Uh, and I think that's incredibly value- I think that will continue, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Mm. Yeah, this also makes me think that everything in a LLM is the past.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: It's not necessarily for now. Um, yeah, so i- it's, it's not this point in time. It, it's, it's, it's retrospective, all of the, the information that's there.
Speaker 2: Yes. Um, I mean, obviously they, they try to get the most present information. They're constantly scraping, um, for breaking news stories, but, but it can't, it can't break news stories. They don't have... It doesn't have original content, an LLM. It, it's using everyone else's content to provide you with some information or, you know, a blended information from six, seven, eight, nine, 10 different data sources. But y- they don't have a journalist in, um, in Jerusalem reporting on trouble there, or, or they're not covering the, the next political crisis with Sir Keir Starmer and the challenge to the leadership. It can't do that. It can, it can report on it, but it's taking content which has been produced by human beings elsewhere. So, so to your point, yes, I mean, it's almost outdated in the sense of it's done and it's just reporting on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Um, so there was recently a CMA ruling in the UK, um, which came down on the side of publishers. Uh, gave them the right to be able to block their content, um, and have their content removed from, um, Google's AI answers. It'd be great to understand what your stance is on that.
Speaker 2: I think we've been very protective of our journalism. Uh, I think we have 1,000 journalists, you know, that we pay for, um, that produce all our content. We don't use AI to, to make content. We invest fully in journalism and, you know, breaking news stories. Um, we obviously, um, have a paywall for, for certain users, Daily Mail Plus, you know, so the subscription aspect of this is going to become more important, I think, to, to journalism to help fund this, um, a- along with advertising. I th- but I think if we take a step back, what does the, what does the case with Google actually mean? We recognize we have to be present inside of LLMs. If your content is not showing up there, um, in the future, is that going to be a problem? Are you going to be disintermediated? The flip side is it's supposed to be the most trusted content. We know people come to our sites directly. Over 60% of our users come directly to The Mail, for example. Um, you get better brand performance for the advertisers. Um, however, if people are doing certain searches, we know that they're never going to the sites. So that zero, zero-click search, especially on a ChatGPT, for example, the research shows from the IOP that they mostly stay in the platform. That experience is designed to stay in the platform. Google's slightly different with the AI results, and they do provide links out to publishers, um, which is helpful. But the reality is, if our journalism is being taken and distributed, but we're not getting any fair value return for it, we don't get paid for it, there's no advertising around it that we control or benefit from, that is, that's a problem because journalism as we know it and news, news brands as we know them will not be able to continue if we're not able to monetize the content that we're producing, and that's a fundamental issue. So, um, you know, the ruling is certainly an interesting ruling in being able to opt out. The question is how much would you want to w- opt out f- from? Are you shooting yourself in the foot? But I think the more pressing topic is how do we commercialize the relationship with the LLMs? Um, because there's clearly an audience there that is useful for us as well, and all the different touchpoints that we have, we would like to benefit from that audience. How do we surface our journalism or our, our video news, whatever it is, inside of the LLM? Because that's what consumers want. I get it. But there needs to be fair value for it. So our position is we have blocked, um, uh, crawlers across our sites. We don't allow them to, to take our content for training, um, you know, or for search results at this point. But we're being very dynamic about that, and we're not putting our head in the sand. We just want to s- find some sort of fav- fair value return, and we will do testing, we will do trials. We get approached all the time to, to monetize with an agentic AI bot, whatever it could be. We will certainly, you know, take a trial on that. And w- why wouldn't you? Because, like, it's clear that this is the world that we are moving to, but we must protect what we have and the journalism that, that we're producing.
Speaker 1: Great. How do you see the, the rise of AI discovery and LLMs affecting and, and changing the, the business model of publishers?
Speaker 2: Yes. I think, you know, if I think about the brands who, you know, when we have QBRs or meetings with them, they're asking more, you know, what our strategy is there. How will, um, say, an advertorial or, um, some form of content, how would it show up inside of an LLM? And of course, if you're immediately saying, "Well, we block them, uh, so it won't show up," but they're thinking, "Well, how am I, how am I now being positioned?" You know, "What's my geo strategy inside of the LLMs?" Um, so I'm paying this money to work with Mail Metro Media, but actually we're blocking it entirely from, from AI. So we've recognized that we probably should be doing partnerships around perhaps the commercial deals that we do, which should be allowed to be scraped and, and sent to LLMs. Uh, an example would be Alzheimer's, for example, where we have very strong partnerships. It's a public health issue. Uh, it's something our audience really cares about. It's going to kill the vast majority of us. But if we're writing, um, you know, content for them editorially, if they're producing content, if we're talking about this, you know, serious, serious topic, we need it in an LLM. So, you know, perhaps we open up certain, um, articles like that so they can be scraped.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, so that's how it's coming up.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's exactly what I'm wondering. Um, you know, AI has accelerated, and it's really shifted in terms of, you know, what brands are after and, on why at this point in time. They need discovery themselves, of course, um, and to be rediscovered within the ChatGPTs, et cetera, of the world, uh, where they may not have the citations, or more importantly, the citations that they need-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... uh, which is very different. Um, obviously everyone in the past has gone through the, the SEO game, as it were, and you've got well-optimized sites, but they now need to re-optimize for, I guess, a brave new world of sorts.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Um, and there's been very much, uh, a swing driven by AI of moving from performance marketing at all costs to quality storytelling and, and brand building. So that... Is that what you're seeing in terms of the brands who are coming to you, wanting to be able to reach their audiences through the art of g- good quality storytelling?
Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, uh, and I want to be clear, you c- you can't buy the content, you know, at Mail Metro Media. There's still very much a church and state divide between commercial and editorial. Um, but I see, and i- interestingly, moving from ad tech three and a half months ago and coming back to a publisher, if I see the shift of what it was like 10 years ago when I was at New- Newsweek or the FT, the difference in how we are selling, uh, was, was a significant, a significant difference and a, and a step change. Uh, it's far more about partnerships now. It's far more about, um, joint business partnerships touching multiple different parts across the portfolio. You know, there has to be a social strategy. You know, there has to be a video component. Um, many of the partners we work with, obviously they want print. You know, we're still the, the largest UK news publisher by far. Um, but, but then there's the website, and you're thinking, "Well, p- is it desktop? Is it display?" There has to be nuance in everything that we do across the portfolio because the audiences are different. And so th- when we're talking to brands, what they're looking for when they think about content, it is far more creative than I remember it being. We're far more innovative, and, uh, it's more bespoke than it ever was. There's a lot of effort and a lot of resource going into making a brand stand out. Um, and then there are outcomes, you know, like we have outcomes packages, which again, you know, some of the spend that we have, uh, commerce spend, I c- I couldn't believe it, millions of pounds of product spend just off the back of one article. Um, you know, there's, there's such a, a power behind the brand, uh, that, you know, that underpins everything that we do. Even if it's on TikTok and it's a 30-second video clip by, you know, an influencer, the reality is what's powering that conversation, it's the Daily Mail brand or the Metro brand, um, or I or New Scientist. That's what's shining through for me, is this creativity and this joint business partnership. It, it's far less transactional than it used to be-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... is how it feels to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, having worked at OpenX, uh, Equative, various other ad techs, what do publishers need, and you talked about the idea of partnership, but from a, a great tech partnership at this point in time?
Speaker 2: I think what, what people are looking for is always, you know, we're always looking for incremental value, incremental uplift, or it doesn't always have to be about money. It could be a new story or a new angle in terms of analytics, something that would shine a light on a part of our audience or an interaction from our audience that we didn't know about that has inherent value to it. If you can demonstrate that, which the help- helps the sales team sell, then, then, then that's an immediate win. Um, I think- If we look at the last 18 months, you know, we've reduced the amount of partners we work with before my arrival by about 50%. So the adstock TXT entries are down 50%. We found that we haven't really lost any money doing that. I think we are looking at a world now where there's fewer, more trusted partners, and again, just like what I was talking about with the brands, it's more like what's in it for both of us? Less transactionary, more about the inherent value and a, and a partnership, you know? Um, so I think what wins now is more collaboration, bringing more value, um, and it's not always about money, as I said. It could be insight. It could be ease of use and efficiency, how we use our own data, for example, or our own platforms. Just e- making everything more seamless and collaborative has, has now an inherent value, uh, more so than I think in the past where you just get a check every month via an SSP or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's an interesting comment. How are you using your own first-party data?
Speaker 2: I mean, very effectively, and each, obviously each campaign is different, but I think we have something like 200 billion data points.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Again, something else that really surprised me when I joined, just the level of sophistication. And I'd worked with Mail Metro Media for 10 years previously with SSPs, all the, all the ones I worked with, and we all think on the Antec side, you know, we have all this data, and we work with all these providers where we can curate this and, uh, optimize that. You know, we think we're the gatekeepers to the, the, the tech and the audiences. But when I came to the, to Mail Metro Media, I was like, "Wow, we have so much data here. We have so much nuance." The fact that we can build outcomes and guaranteed, uh, deals is not something that, again, I expected. So we use it in all sorts of different ways, whether it's for the, for the commerce deals that we're doing, whether it's for PMP packages, where we're trying to drive awareness, whether it's literally for a local conversion for, I don't know, a car brand or something in Manchester. First-party data is, is very, very important for our targeting, and obviously we work with, um, Permutive as a DMP, so we have all sorts of different co- cohorts and intent packages. It is vital to, to have your, uh, website tagged efficiently, and that value is something that really only a publisher should be doing on a direct basis.
Speaker 1: I think you've, you've also touched on the idea of trust-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... as well. Um, and interestingly, you've, you've talked the fact that you're serving less ads-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... but there's been a pushup in terms of quality. When I look at media buyers, often price is a huge voice within the room, as it were. How are you helping your sales team convey to a media buyer the value that you're selling?
Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, ultimately, I guess at some point, everything comes down to ROAS, even if it's branding or whether it's a really tight performance campaign. Everybody wants to see the value in the money that they're spending with you is benefiting their company. Um, I, you know, what's the saying? There's no f- no such thing as a free lunch. Is, is still, is still true. Um, I would say, though, that the conversations that we have now, um, about the premiumization of our site, the, you know, we reduced the number of ads. I think at one point they were 12, then it went to 10. Now the average, depending on where you go, is about 4.5 ads per site. Then we have a pr- a premiumized, uh, version for our subscribers. It's about three ads per site. And we've introduced new ad formats in the last two months, which will give you 100% share of voice. They're new, more interactive, premium engaged formats, recognizing that we don't want to bombard you with wallpaper, right? We want the ads to perform for the brand, but we want them to perform for our audiences. Uh, that is a step change in the way that we think when we go from a world which was produ- predominantly open market, you know, third-party monetization. Now we're talking about more direct, more embedded, m- more valuable, a valuable product for our buyers and our readers. Um, and I think the sales team has responded, you know, very quickly to that, uh, and they're bought into that and the, the agencies and the brands that we spoke to are absolutely on board with that. Uh, and it's excited them in the last three months that they see the difference. They can see it going through the site. It's much faster, less latency. Um, that is the world that we need to be operating to, and then especially when you think of a future which is probably more subscriber-based, um, you can't have just ads floating around following you everywhere. It... That premiumization again that we come down to, that is a value return for your time on our site.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, c- certainly no one loves the un- uncanny valley experience, as some kinda describe it.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, we're, we're past that now.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And those publishers that are doing that, it, it's not going to survive, especially with AI, and you s- you see the number of page views dropping. I've read all sorts of different reports. I don't know the exact number in terms of the UK decline year over year, but I've seen numbers between 30 and seven- 70% decline year over year in page views for publishers. And if that continues, and you just keep putting more and more ads on the site to try and claw back every piece of, of, uh, available addressable monetization, it's not gonna work for anybody.
Speaker 1: That leads me into my next question, which is, now what kind of brief gets the best out of a publisher, um, such as, um, you know, Mail Metro?
Speaker 2: Uh, as Dom Williams, my boss, chief revenue officer says, "Challenge us." And he was like, "Make it difficult. Really push us. Make us come back with something that you didn't think we could do, because the reality is we probably can." And I think that's actually quite inspiring. But he's right because they do challenge us when he says stuff like that, and we come... You know, big brands really push us to drive, and it's not all about value or outcomes, but it's something different, something unique that they haven't seen before. And of course, we've been around for a long time, 130 years. What haven't you seen before? But I think that's when we're leaning into sort of the new media and the creators and what we can do socially that hasn't been done before, 'cause that's still very nascent, even though we're the largest-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... new social media publisher online, the stuff th- the stuff that we're doing and the, the content that we're producing, uh, is so dynamic. Um, you know, it's all underpinned by print, uh, and then you have the experiences on the website. So I think it's stitching a narrative throughout the entire audience portfolio. You know, big briefs, partnerships, creative briefs really push us, and we love that because I think we respond so well with our research, our insights, our data. Our cr- uh, ability to be creative is where we would really stand out because we have the resources to do that. It's not to say I'm, uh, you know, I'm not also excited at, uh, with a transactional PMP, uh, that, you know, is producing value. But it is this, this more in-depth creative partner-led approach is the thing that really allows us to fly.
Speaker 1: Mm. And you've, you've, you've kind of touched on this, but, uh, if you were advising a CMO in terms of how best to buy publishing media, where would you start?
Speaker 2: Give us a ring. I mean, just, just pick up the phone. Uh, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because, again, when I joined, I, I assumed wrongly that still the majority of the revenue would be driven programmatically for Mail Metro Media. It's not the case. Our relationships are primarily direct. We have direct IOs, um, with our agencies. We work very closely with the brands, far more than actually I would've thought. I think we do a fantastic job here. So already that was something that I didn't expect. But, but why? What does it mean for the CMO? They already know the value they get from news brands, and it's not just Mail Metro Media, it's all the news brands. They know that they trust them. They know that there are standards of codes and ethics that we are governed by. It's not, as you say, AI slop. It's not user-generated content. It is a trusted, regulated environment where we will get sued if we write stories that are not true, um, or sen- you know, sort of, um, outrageously sensational. You get called to account. Um, we know that all the different studies from News Works or Wavemaker or the AOP or the IAB, it all shows that that trusted, engaged environment has inherent value for brands to be associated alongside. And when I've been out in the last three months and I've been ma- meeting, you know, the C-suite and the agency heads and I've been meeting the brands, and we have many brands here coming to visit us for the next three days, they know that. They appreciate that. Um, and I believe that there's an inherent love for, for news publishers, quality news journalism. They, they recognize that that is paramount to protect because without it, what do you have left? So I would say the vast majority, um, are on board already. I think it's, it's maintaining that and just not making sure that they don't think that we're just here and we're always going to be present because this existential moment is real, and we are adapting to it as an industry, but you should never assume that, um, it's forever. And, and that's what I would say. Protect the thing you love. If you love it, you have to invest in it. Um, don't take the money and start putting it in other channels. Help us work for you on those channels, but remember why you love the brand and what we do.
Speaker 1: Fantastic. Um, I always ask this question as a kind of a wrap-up-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: ... as it were. For a younger individual looking to get into the world of perhaps advertising, media, marketing, what advice would you provide to them at this point in time?
Speaker 2: Think long and hard about why you want to go into that industry. It's very hard, our industry. It's, it's changed significantly over the last 25 years. Um, you have to really, really want to be in this industry. You have to care about it. You have to be passionate about it. Um, we look for people who really care about what they're doing, and that contribution is meaningful because it, it gets the most out of you, and you're doing the best that you can, and I think that's where we are as an industry right now. You have to really care about being here. You have to care about your brands. You have to care about your audiences, care about what you're doing, um, 'cause otherwise it's too difficult to survive. There's this disintermediation between AI, th- these efficiencies. There's less more junior jobs than there, than there ever have been. Um, we're always plagued by redundancies each year in our industry, whether you're on the agency side, the creative side, the publishing side, even ad tech is not immune. Um, so what I'm saying is it's tough, but those people who are passionate and care, those are the people who get on. Those are the people who end up running the companies. Those are the people leading teams. Those are the influencers in our industry, and it shines forth if you care about something and you kind of, sounds very, you know, sort of cheesy here, but you do become a beacon of hope. We like to be surrounded by positive people. So think long and hard that that's what you want to do, and then when you've made that decision, really commit, throw yourself into it, um, and then give us a ring at Mail Metro Media 'cause we love bringing young graduates, and we have a whole load of junior jobs now that we're hiring for, and we would love those people to be part of where we're going.
Speaker 1: Brilliant. Fantastic, Pierce. Um, you've been such a, a brilliant guest on the show today. Thanks y- for your time.
Speaker 2: Thank you, John. Really appreciate it.