Interview Episode 110

Brand builds the pipeline of tomorrow. AI can install the team. Consistency beats short-termism.

Interviewed by Justin Cooke

Published

Harry Davies, VP of marketing strategy, investment and effectiveness, Sage

Harry Davies is VP of marketing strategy, investment and effectiveness at Sage, where he leads the company's evidence-based approach to measurement and the balance between brand and demand. A fine art graduate turned marketing scientist, he is known for treating marketing as a testable discipline and for translating econometrics and effectiveness into language sales and finance leaders will act on.

A fine art graduate proved a free bottle of water beat everything else

The setup.

Davies was a fine art graduate who needed an income and fell into marketing, then got obsessed after a talk on direct mail: you can put one thing in one envelope and a different thing in another, send them out and see which worked. Running a campaign to get disadvantaged young people into college, he had a lot of fall off at enrollment. It was a hot summer, so he printed two letters, one offering a free bottle of water at the voucher, randomly assigned across 2,000 envelopes he stuffed himself. The voucher group turned up far better, and he realised you could test everything.

On the science.

That instinct led him to a postgraduate in economics and mathematical science, then to central government and econometrics, on problems as hard as whether marketing could get people to quit smoking after 20 years. Changing an ingrained social behaviour is far harder than selling something, and applying that science was what hooked him. He has stayed on the scientific side of marketing evaluation ever since, through Google, Amazon and now Sage.

Marketing effectiveness has quietly collapsed into advertising effectiveness

On the whole mix.

When people say marketing effectiveness they usually mean media or advertising effectiveness, not the whole mix. As media grew more technical and specialised, teams poured attention into the promotion mix and got very good at it, while price and product, arguably more important, got far less scrutiny. Many marketers have no formal training and learn from LinkedIn, making good and bad calls, and the gap is the rest of the mix, where teams spend less time. Davies calls that an error.

On honest measurement.

Where measurement sits changes the answer. Inside marketing, someone eventually says we spent a lot, show me it worked, and you trawl for the thing that went up rather than the full truth. When the effectiveness team reports through finance or operations, you get more honest reporting because it made none of the investment decisions. Davies invokes Tim Ambler's three types of marketing and warns that giving a team a target makes it prove what it did rather than work out the right thing to do.

Buyers arrive every five to eight years, so brand is the pipeline of tomorrow

On not-in-market buyers.

In B2B software as a service, buyers come into market every five to eight years and you cannot control when. Do nothing until they arrive and you have to outspend competitors to win them. Reach them out of market, at their category entry point, when they start thinking about finance, with a consistent message about their pain points, and when they come in you are first on the shortlist and spend less on activation. The change to quarterly reporting for sole traders is an enormous entry point pulling millions into market.

On selling brand internally.

Explaining brand to sales and finance leaders, who hold a lot of power, is hard. They treat marketing like sales: here is the target, what will it cost to convert. So Davies reframes it as building the pipeline of today and the pipeline of tomorrow, and speaks their language of quota, pipeline and recognition on a call. He spent his first year at Sage meeting finance weekly, using a hangover to explain attribution and then the weather and the economy to explain econometrics.

The buying group is 14 people and the journey never runs in a straight line

On the buying group.

By the time Sage closes a deal it has usually reached about 14 or 15 people, and that mix changes over time. Early on you reach end users and potential champions rather than decision-makers. If you only target the people who sign, you talk to a tiny part of the group and miss everyone who influenced the decision earlier, so Sage goes broad early to reach future advocates and focuses on decision-makers later.

On the messy journey.

Sage is building content for different buyers at different stages, using AI tools and internal squads to do it cost effectively. But the linear journey only works on PowerPoint. In reality people jump from not in market to a decision, or enter consideration, get a budget cut and drop out for a year. People make their own journeys and find their own content, which is harder because it does not fit the system people expect.

AI made a rep so briefed a prospect thought she had worked in his industry

On the worked example.

Sage enabled sales development reps with AI tools that saved a day a week each on research and on turning call transcripts into handover documents. Listening to the calls, Davies heard a prospect ask a rep if she had left catering manufacture to join Sage. She never had, but the prospecting agent had briefed her so well on the industry and how Sage solved that company's problems that he assumed she must have worked in it.

On effectiveness over cost.

That flipped his thinking: the point is not cutting costs, it is driving more effective marketing with these tools, and cutting costs. There is usually a strong link in B2B between revenue growth and headcount growth, and Davies believes you can keep quality high while decoupling the two, which is the part he is most excited about.

Install a marketing team rather than hire one, except where creativity is the product

On installing marketing.

Davies would go further: many B2B companies could install marketing rather than hire a team. Give an LLM your product release documents and prospect information, and it can build value propositions, define the ideal customer profile and choose channels better than unqualified marketers, then automate it. In FMCG, where products are near identical, you still need human creativity to differentiate. In much of B2B, especially early stage, you can automate almost all of it at a better than average level.

On sameism and distinctiveness.

The risk of AI blandness is real, but Davies is not sure B2B is not already bland. He watched a brand marketer preach distinctive assets, then show a video where you could change the logo and nobody would know. Delivering distinctiveness is hard because everyone has an opinion and distinctive assets turn people off precisely because they do not look like the category. In B2B the real differentiation is often in the product, so dialling up product investment can beat dialling up creative.

Marketing is the recurring revenue engine, not just the acquisition engine

On the full lifecycle.

Davies likes the Winning by Design bow tie: a funnel from brand awareness to the mutual commit, then retention and expansion on the right, delivering recurring impact. Marketing has a role across all of it, accelerating the pipeline, defending against competitors and driving value with existing customers. Most B2B businesses treat marketing as the acquisition engine, not the recurring revenue engine, and he hopes that changes.

On living with customers.

At Amazon, senior staff must spend a week a year listening to customer calls, and Davies has kept that habit at every stage. He once enrolled in a stop smoking clinic without smoking, to understand what his campaigns were sending people to do. Take the internal politics away and it is all marketing, because marketing is just taking your products to market, even the parts that do not report into the department.

Winning market share is a five to 10 year job, not a next-financial-year job

On short tenures.

Quarterly reporting and city pressure drive short CMO tenures. Many businesses still think marketing is coin operated like sales: chuck in cash and win share. In reality that is a 5 to 10 year job. A new CMO restructures the team, changes the media mix and tries new channels all at once, each taking 6 to 18 months, and it becomes a mess, so after two years people ask where the evidence is. Success needs real board trust and an evidence-based case with gates you will pass through.

On the closing advice.

Davies's quickfire: cost per lead is meaningless because opportunities take multiple leads, and inbound product marketing, bringing customer needs back to the product team, is undervalued. His advice to newcomers is to read the academic literature, understand how marketing works, spend an inordinate amount of time with customers and stop making knee-jerk reactions. Marketing is not that complicated: do the right things consistently and the benefits compound.

The board question

If our buyers only enter the market every five to eight years, how much are we investing to be their first call when they do, rather than spending everything to outbid competitors on the few who are in market today?