Episode 167 · Season 7 · ·
Market To Agents
Cathy Oh, Founding Chief Marketing Officer at Samsung Ads, on why the marketing funnel is collapsing, why brands now have to market to AI agents as well as people, and why AI is a facilitator that still needs a human to start the creative.
Cathy Oh, Founding Chief Marketing Officer, Samsung Ads. In conversation with John Horsley.
Market To Agents
0:0045:00More than two decades across linear TV, mobile and connected TV advertising, from NBC Universal and Bravo to Apple and eleven years defining streaming at Samsung, Cathy Oh has learned to read every new technology before the category even has a name. In this episode she argues that the marketing funnel is collapsing, that brands now have to market to AI agents as well as to people, and that AI is best understood as a facilitator that still needs a human at the start of the creative.
Oh began as a bioscience major at Carnegie Mellon, failing by year two, until a personality exam put science at the bottom and business, marketing, PR and communications at the top. She leaned into storytelling through brand, creative and data, interned at CNBC at NBC Universal in ad sales marketing, then started her career at Bravo in the same division. At SyFy she watched digital banners given away free because no one could yet value them. She defined mobile in-app advertising at Apple, then joined Samsung in 2015 before connected TV was even a term, and by her account spent 11 years defining that category. She is now Founding Chief Marketing Officer of Samsung Ads.
In this conversation with host John Horsley, Oh argues that the funnel is collapsing and that buyers now arrive with an AI agent in their pocket, so brands have to market to the agents as directly as they market to people. She makes the case that AI is a facilitator rather than a finished product, that the technology we use today is the dumbest we will ever use, and that the creatives who last will be the ones who use the tools while keeping the human brain at the start. She is clear-eyed on the risks: governance has always come after the technology, and this time it is moving too fast to keep up. Be a student, she says, and do not be afraid to try.
You talk about AI eroding the value of other technologies. How do you see that?
“Anyone who thinks that AI is a product, I think will have to start shifting and thinking about AI as a facilitator.”
More than AI eroding tech and product development, I wonder whether we're looking at AI through the wrong lens. We assume AI companies have a product, but what if AI is a facilitator, helping new businesses emerge, accelerate, or existing businesses pivot? Someone told me the AI we're working with right now is the dumbest AI we'll ever work with. What we know today is nowhere near where it'll be in six months or two years. You'll see existing technology that underperformed come through via AI in less than six months.
The customer journey is changing, and buyers now arrive with AI tools. How should businesses think about this?
“Does brand with a big B still matter?”
The marketing funnel is collapsing, awareness is collapsing. I asked a room of tech leaders once: does brand with a big B still matter? As a marketer it pains me to even ask, because of course brand matters. But put it in a matrix of commodity, price points and 1,800 competitors, and does it really matter, or do you just buy the first three that are recommended? You now need a multi-tentacle strategy. You still convert, reach and retain customers, but now you also have to think about the agents, which may be the more direct way of converting a client. Until there's clearer governance over citations and fraud, the louder you speak, the more you get served.
What classic mistakes do you see marketers make when procuring new technology?
“Once you start to execute and partner together, you are as responsible as the tech that underlies it.”
There's sometimes a blanket trust. You get a demo, you see the input and the output, but you don't look under the hood. At an enterprise level you have to look under the hood and ask the hard questions, because once you execute and partner together, you are as responsible as the tech that underlies it. The other mistake is deploying too quickly. We relied on the foundation of the business, built on the data we had and developed trust in the industry, and data-backed thought leadership plays a significant role in building sustainable long-term trust.
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Voices is where senior practitioners share what they're seeing, what they believe and what they'd change.
Become a Voice →Does the AI founder world still feel male-dominated?
“I think that AI might level the field a little bit in terms of gender representation”
In the founder's world I believe it's still male-dominated, and the stats will show that. Are there more women leaders, engineers and data scientists now? Absolutely. There's still a sentiment that the tech space is meant for the tech bros. But I have an unproven and probably contentious thought: I think AI might level the field in terms of gender representation, because now you can have a one-person company and run a profitable business. I'm thrilled to see what that brings for women, men and different generations.
How do you decide which technologies to select, rather than chasing shiny objects?
“I want to be first all the time.”
I use three criteria. First, privacy, data, governance and ethics as one, because partnerships fail when two parties have a different ethos, and the integrity of the data and the tech has to be there. Second, is it really going to give us an edge and make a material impact, or is it just another shiny object wasting dollars, time and learning? Third, I want to be first all the time. First in the category, first to introduce a product, first to be a new measurement partner. If it lets us pioneer where no one else has thought, that's where tech matters.
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Lightly edited for readability
Speaker 1: Welcome to The Business Marketing. My name's John Horsley, I'm the host of today's episode. I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Cathy Oh, who is Founding CMO at, at Samsung Ads. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me, John. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: What would be really great to understand before, you know, we, we kinda get into the, the, the nitty-gritty and then the depth of the conversation, is what was it in the first instance that attracted you to the world of marketing, media, advertising? What was it that, uh, you saw or perhaps there was a, a potential moment and you thought, "Wow, actually this looks like a piece of myself"?
Speaker 2: You know, it's a really great question, and one that, um, I will have to bring you back to my university days. So I was at Carnegie Mellon as a bioscience, uh, major, which I was failing, uh, royally by year two. And what I've realized at that moment, there was an exam that really just kinda gave you guidance in terms of your personality, how do you match that to a career. And while science was on the very bottom, what was on top was business, marketing, PR, communications, and as I started to lean into it, one of the things that I was fascinated about was the power of storytelling, and storytelling to be able to do that through brand, through creative, and absolutely a world that I love is through data and measurement. So I had a first opportunity to intern with CNBC at NBC Universal within ad sales marketing. I mean, how lucky did I get-
Speaker 1: Wow
Speaker 2: ... to get that first chance, right? And then from there, um, I was fortunate enough to receive an opportunity to start off my career at Bravo in the ad sales marketing division. So was I searching and looking for B2B marketing? Not necessarily, but when it came into my life, it became one of those moments where I loved marrying my creative side of my m- brain as well as the revenue and business side as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. What great opportunities at early stage.
Speaker 2: It's tremendous. I'm so grateful for it still.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and something you touched on there, the art and craft of storytelling, which is absolutely something I'm passionate about, do you feel that we've come full circle in many ways in terms of marketing, how brands need to shout out, how they need to perhaps shift and adjust their practice?
Speaker 2: You know, full circle maybe. I would say that maybe this is a, a new evolution of it. So I think that with every emerging technology that comes out, and I am, uh, obsessed actually with consumer behavior, it's something that I've just always leaned into, the storytelling becomes a new art, and that's why I always say as a marketer you have to be a student again, and I am very much an active student at the moment. You need to learn not just how new technology is emerging, but also when you think about consumer behavior and how it's shifting, I mean, we often have this debate, like, what came first? Was it consumer behavior or the technology? But being able to maximize the two and then deliver a brand story and ability to give those sharper edges, I think it becomes a very interesting, uh, challenge-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... and one that I'm excited to try to tackle as this world of AI is emerging right around us.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love how you describe yourself as a student as well. That's-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... that's brilliant. Probably a handful of people that I've spoken to, you know, on the show over the last three years have described themselves that, in that way.
Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Yep.
Speaker 1: Uh, and they all, to a certain extent, have similar traits about them.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, I love the fact that you are constantly researching-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... staying abreast of, uh, AI, and also the sort of the new and emerging technologies, and that seems to be a trait a- across your career. Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: Well, I have, um... I've always found it fascinating when there's been kind of these new technologies that shift not just consumer behavior, but shift industries as well. You know, um, not that I had an intention to go out and approach my career this way, but when I first started off in linear TV, I was fortunate enough to be right at the cusp of what I'll say is like the dotcom digital marketing age emerging. You know, I still remember this. When I was at, um, SyFy, uh, we were giving away digital banners for free. I mean, it was an added value, right?
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: There was no way to really conceptualize how to put value against this, but you could see that there was clearly a campaign and an extension. And soon after that was the world of mobile advertising, right? And that's when I had my career at Apple, where we were really defining what does mobile in-app advertising looks like, the thousands and millions of data points that are being built across not just TV but also across the app ecosystem, and then here you are with CTV and streaming, where I spent 11 years really defining that category.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So to answer your question, how do I stay abreast of it, you know, I look at what is emerging in terms of what's going on around us. You know, you see new companies that are evolving. I must have had 50 to 60 different conversations across founders, VCs, and PEs today. That's my education right there.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: That is where I'm going to be learning the most in terms of what's next.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the energy of, of founders as well-
Speaker 2: Yep
Speaker 1: ... and spending time with them, and, and that, you know, they are people who are thinking differently, you know, to kinda use the Apple expression.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. Think differently, right?
Speaker 1: Um, but maybe not like you or I or, or even other founders-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... which is great. Um, they're the vanguard, aren't they? They're at the cutting edge.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and they're constantly, you know, innovating and fighting through and fighting the fight on a daily basis as well.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I find that so fun and exciting, though. I mean, there's a part of me that absolutely envies the day and day that they live through, and certainly there's the, the pains of a founder that needs to think about how do I continue to keep the lights on-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... and how do I continue to get the seed funding? But if you think about it, what they're developing and building now is really creating a foundation to what's next, and I think that is nothing that you can really recreate again. It's tremendous.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: I mean, some, you know, some will obviously soar and succeed-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... others will f- you know, fail fast and perhaps harder-
Speaker 2: Or become a commodity. Exactly
Speaker 1: ... and then, and then learn a lesson, right?
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: And, uh, or pivot, do something else-
Speaker 2: Yep
Speaker 1: ... um, and become successful. Um, over your career, you've, you've obv- as, as we talked about, um- You know, you've been spotting new technologies and so on. How have you implemented those into businesses such as Samsung in the past?
Speaker 2: You know, when I started at Samsung, it was 2015, and when I say this is well before the category was defined, I think CTV was not a term at that time. Uh, we had called it Wi-Fi TV, connected apps, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: And what I've learned is not only do you need to see what the consumers are doing and see how they're behaving, but the technology that wraps around it really becomes, how do I solve for a problem? And also then, how do I service? And you know, one of the comments that you made about how so many founders will actually, unfortunately, not make it to the success stage, I think a lot of that has to do with not knowing how to drive successful go-to-market and scale the business.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So throughout my career at Samsung, we have been looking at various technology, new ways of introducing measurement, ways that we could even build internally, and I think in order to do that, we always have to look around the corner as to what's going to be the problem that we need to solve for.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, businesses obs- obviously ask themselves the question, buy or build.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: You have to. Um, I also feel that companies have made errors in the past in terms of looking at point solutions was probably a nice way of describing it.
Speaker 2: Yep, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Um, or the, "Ooh, that's glittery, that's shiny."
Speaker 1: "We need, we need, we need one of those. Everyone else-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... is getting one of those at this point in time."
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: How do you go about making sensible and kind of critical decisions for the business in terms of the types of technologies that you'll select and, and why, versus obviously what you might not?
Speaker 2: You know, there's, um... It's a great question, and I, I will tell you, I didn't always successfully do it either. I've learned my lessons along the way.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Um, but there are three criterias that I look at when I think about either new technology or p- partners and vendors that come into the fold of what we do in our work. Um, the first is, and it may not be in this particular order, so I'll just note that. The first, though, is I do look at its, um, privacy, data, governance, ethics, all of those wrapped into one because at the end of the day, I have seen where partnerships do not do well because one h- um, has a different ethos, if you will, than the other, and at the end of the day, the integrity of the data and the integrity of the t- of the tech has to actually be there. The second is, um, is this really going to give us an edge? Is this making a material impact? And if it's not, it's just another shiny object that you're-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... bringing on board-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... that's probably going to waste not just dollars, but time and learning to understand that tool and skill set, and then being able to implement that and incorporate that into the company. So is it really going to make a material impact? And then the third is, I want to be first all the time. I mean, how do I become first in the category, first to introduce a new product, first to be a new measurement partner? And if it allows us to be having that sharper edge where we're truly identifying how do we pioneer in a space that maybe no one else has thought about, I think that's where tech really becomes important to enfold.
Speaker 1: Mm. And what mistakes do you see along the way that, you know, y- okay, you've, you failed, which is great-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... and you learn from it-
Speaker 2: Yep
Speaker 1: ... which is fantastic, and I feel that people should be able to take a level of risk. But are there classic mistakes that you see in terms of marketers looking to procure a, a new technology?
Speaker 2: You know, I'll speak more generally, and some of this does speak to myself as well in terms of some of my experiences. I think sometimes there is this, um, blanket trust that might happen. You know, in understanding you get a demo, you get an experience, you see the technology work, the input, the output, but you don't really look under the hood.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: And as a partner, especially at an enterprise level, if you are going to be bringing in a technology partner, you have to look under the hood. You have to ask the hard questions 'cause you are as responsible, right? Once you start to execute and partner together, you are as responsible as the tech that underlies it. Um, another example that I would say that I see oftentimes gets mistaken is, um, I think that deployment sometimes happens too quickly. So, you know, even in our first three to five years when I was at Samsung, and I would even argue at Apple when we were there for about our first two years, we did not, you know, launch immediately with the newest tech, the shiniest thing that was out there. We really relied on what is the foundation of our business, and setting that foundation up, if I was to start another business right now, I would set it up the same way. You have to build upon the data that you have. You have to develop trust in the industry, and I think thought leadership. Thought leadership meaning data-backed and data-driven thought leadership plays a significant role in being able to develop that sustainable long-term trust.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you're right. It's a marriage that you get signed into-
Speaker 2: It is
Speaker 1: ... at the end of the day.
Speaker 2: It's a total marriage.
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's no other way of describing it, right?
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Um, and then today you've been at, at what sounds like a really interesting event. Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: Well, this morning, um, I was hosting a breakfast alongside, uh, Women Applying AI. It is a nonprofit that I sit on the New York leadership hub for. Um, it's a tremendous organization. I just met them, really got introduced to them in May, so not too long ago-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... but they've been around for a year now, um, across 2,700 members, nine, excuse me, 10 cities now. And the thing that I was so drawn to this organization is that it's about building AI fluency at any stage of your AI awareness and AI skills. So it's not just about driving awareness and inclusivity across women in tech, women in every industry, but it is also about, um, giving them the level to be, um, AI confident, as you would say. So this morning we hosted a panel across three incredible women who are actively in this space, and we called it The Morning Table, and it's where AI meets advertising, and it was phenomenal. It's a wonderful room, safe space, no jargons, no pitches, no egos, but it was a safe space for us to talk about what's happening in the world of AI and advertising.
Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, I'm thinking back- God, 15 years-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... it was such a male-dominated industry, you know, advertising, media, marketing-
Speaker 2: Back then only
Speaker 1: ... and so on.
Speaker 1: Maybe even the last 10 years-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: ... you know, and, and so on. Uh, and it's great that, you know, equality, you know, and gender, et cetera-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... started becoming addressed. And actually, I think it goes beyond that. I think it was actually interest as well.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: That more women became enthusiastic and in- and actually interested-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... in some of the technologies and the tech businesses.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, do you feel at the moment, uh, with the AI businesses and the founders that it, it still feels a bit perhaps male-dominated?
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, um, you know, it, it, it pains me a little bit to say that, um, but I'll, I'll address it in one way, which is in the founder's world, I believe it is still male-dominated, and I, I can guarantee that there's stats that will actually showcase that as well.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Um, but is there more women leaders now, and women engineers, women data scientists? Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I do think that there is still, um, a general sentiment that the AI or tech space is meant for male, you know... I'll ca- I hate to say it, but let's call it the tech bros, if you will.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: And we've evolved quite a bit from it. Now, I have a unproven and probably contentious, uh, thought that I hope that I can prove out three years from now, let's say, but I think that AI might level the field a little bit in terms of gender representation, and I say that because now we're looking at tools that will accelerate... You can have a one-person company and run an incredible, profitable business. So-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... I'm thrilled to see what this is going to bring, not just-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... for women and men, but also for different generations.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I've been, I've been thinking about that. You can become a founder of-
Speaker 2: I met one yesterday-
Speaker 1: ... a one-person company
Speaker 2: ... actually. Yep.
Speaker 1: Uh, all of your team, your, um, staff are agents.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Uh, and you could be doing billions of dollars of revenue-
Speaker 2: You sure can
Speaker 1: ... if you've got the right idea. Yeah.
Speaker 2: You sure can.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: I'm talking unicorn, you know, and-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... this is, as they say, as rare as hen's teeth.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: But, uh, I can't see why that isn't possible.
Speaker 2: You know, um, I actually have met a handful of founders that are either a team of one or a team of two, and here, look, is it going to be the multi-billion dollar business? Maybe not. But in the building stage, you certainly can build a business with-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... just a handful of folks, with, uh, lots of smart agents, lots of great machines, and a really good idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it has to start with a good idea.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and, and a problem that needs fixing.
Speaker 2: A problem that needs fixing.
Speaker 1: Rather than one that's-
Speaker 2: That's right
Speaker 1: ... been invented.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, what are some of the neat things that you've seen recently, so some of the, the really cool technologies that are solving brilliant-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... world, world problems? Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, there's so many. Um, I'll, I'll speak to one that I spoke to, uh, recently. Um, look, I don't know if it's solving world problems, but for me, it's fascinating as a marketer 'cause it's changing and shifting the way marketers might gain feedback from customers, right? So there's a company that I just learned of recently called Dialogue AI.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Um, and what they work on is recreating... And look, please, please, um, don't fault me, anyone who works at Dialogue, if I butcher the actual pitch itself. But-
Speaker 2: ... what they do is they are reinventing the way that companies and brands can actually gain feedback and insights from customers, and this is through a machine that's asking a question. So let's say it's you, John, and there'll be a video of you as if you're talking to, you know, doing a FaceTime or a video call. And every respondent is getting a different type of conversation based on the feedback you give, but it's also able to talk about sentiment. So think about the depth of data that you get when you start looking at tone, facial expressions-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... your sentiment, your body language. I mean, I think that the depth of data that it can create is fascinating, and one of the things that I have been thinking about, it's been on top of my mind, is yes, it's great for marketers and brands, but what about other sectors? What about politics? Healthcare? You know, there's so many different industries that are constantly looking at, how do I get customer feedback about my product-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... about my service, and so forth. So that's one that's been really interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna apologize now if I've misquoted a company called Human.
Speaker 2: Ah.
Speaker 1: But I believe they started out as a security tech business-
Speaker 2: They sure did
Speaker 1: ... and then have moved into the world of marketing.
Speaker 2: Yes. And Human, first of all, phenomenal. I met another person yesterday working at Human, and you know, one of the things that I find interesting about what they do is that they're really reinventing, or I should say creatively reinventing how a marketer can think-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... about their strategy, and I think that's what's fascinating about it as well. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Mm. Are you seeing any other companies that have started out in one category and now have, you know, pivoted... Or not p- pivoted-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: ... but they've just found a really strong use case for themselves? Or perhaps they started out with one use case-
Speaker 2: Yep
Speaker 1: ... test and learn and, and so on, but it was actually something else that was more compelling or more useful about what they were doing.
Speaker 2: Let me think. I haven't really seen, um... Look, I, I imagine there's so many out there. Not necessarily a direct pivot, but I will speak to one. Um, Petra Labs is someone, uh, is a company that I met recently, and, uh, the founder, one of the co-founders there, he and I got into conversation. And what they do is, as you can imagine, through the entire world of GEO now, where you have, I mean, you have to basically not only market to your customers, but now you have to market to agents as well.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: So think about all those citations and whether it's across Reddit, your brand, your reviews. Um, what they're really doing is to help not only assess the power of that and to make sure that you're being placed properly, but they have a full in-house team that is also helping you develop. So it becomes kind of this 360 model that I haven't seen that yet. I've seen other companies, as you can imagine, that are just helping you get better placement, get better citations and such, but-
Speaker 1: Sure
Speaker 2: ... they then pass it off to the marketing team.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: I think what they're doing is Avoiding and removing friction, which every marketer loves, the faster that we can get things done, and especially if they know how to speak to your brand and they know how to speak to their customers, I think that data is powerful.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: I'm also thinking about AI eroding the value of other technologies.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Speaker 1: So, you know, technology in the past was expensive to build, it was very hard to replicate, and so on. I don't believe that there is much out there that I couldn't point a AI at, work with it to build a documentation.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know-
Speaker 1: Perhaps build out some screens, uh, and then say, "Right, go build." Uh, and four, five days later, I've got a product there that perhaps I can then tweak and improve on as well and, and improve my own use case.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, whereas I may have been spending several hundred bucks per month on.
Speaker 2: I think what you hit upon is such a fascinating topic because, you know, more than speaking to how AI eroding the tech and the product development, I actually wonder, like, are we perhaps looking at AI at the wrong lens or incorrectly? To give you an example, you know, we talk oftentimes about AI companies, and we automatically think that they have a product, right? But what if AI is a facilitator, and we think about how is it facilitating new businesses to either emerge or new businesses to accelerate-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... or even existing business to pivot, right? So I think the conversation, I think someone said it to me best, you know, the AI that we're working with right now is the dumbest AI that you'll ever be working with, and it smacked me in my head and I was just like, you know, what we know today is nowhere near where it's going to be six months, one year, two years from now, and I think that's what gets exciting about it. I will say, though, anyone who thinks that AI is a product, I think will have to start shifting and thinking about AI as a facilitator.
Speaker 1: As a?
Speaker 2: Facilitator.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a really interesting way of, of looking at things. Um, but I also see that there'll be some fantastic product businesses-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... coming out of service companies-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... because they have worked with the AI as a facilitator-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... to solve the problems that they have.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: And perhaps the technology didn't exist before.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: So it could be new category, or it could just be huge improvement on, uh, a technology that someone had built in the past under the, I guess, the, the build and they will come kind of umbrella.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I think the latter is definitely strong there. I think you will see it in le- less than six months. We're going to see that existing technology that maybe didn't perform to the extent or potential or even what we imagined it could be, is then going to show and come through through AI.
Speaker 1: Hmm. Um, the company that you talked about earlier, Petra Labs-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... we're gonna have them on the show, and-
Speaker 2: Oh, great
Speaker 1: ... thanks for, for introducing them.
Speaker 2: Good, good, good. Yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They sound fascinating, and-
Speaker 2: I'm glad that worked out
Speaker 1: ... clearly need to do my research there.
Speaker 2: Well, I love promoting new founders, businesses, especially ones that I find that could be really interesting, and I always think about, you know, who do I wanna partner with next, you know?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So love that, and you're gonna be-
Speaker 1: And-
Speaker 2: ... speaking with them
Speaker 1: ... I don't see it happening this week, but actually what I see is that we'll be doing a season perhaps for the new year-
Speaker 2: Okay
Speaker 1: ... uh, around new emerging technologies, AI-
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm looking into that
Speaker 1: ... AI meets marketing and, and so on. So we'll be hitting you up for probably some more introductions. But yeah, we met some fantastic companies the other day. One of the things that you said about them, uh, was around the customer journey.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: So clearly the, the, you know, the customer journey is changing massively-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... in the world of B2B. H- You have, uh, a buying committee, and that's ever-expanding. Uh, some of the clients that I work with in the B2B space might have up to 24 decision-makers now.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... three years back, it could've been eight to 12.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Uh, now all of those decision-makers are coming with a pocket guide, uh, i.e. GPT or whatever-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... that is their go-to in their pocket, um, that might just be amplifying some of their opinions. They could be the wrong opinions-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... as well because-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... let's be honest, uh, our agents tell us what we wanna hear-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... and blow smoke up our ass, um-
Speaker 2: No, so true
Speaker 1: ... fa- fairly often. Um, but discovery's changing as well, so, you know, supply selection, they're, you know, searching. We've got this problem, um, or we're coming up to renew contract with a supplier. Who else should we be looking at and, and wh- and why and so forth. Many companies are perhaps gonna be in a position where they're not making that shortlist because they're not being recommended.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: How do you think businesses need to, to think about this? Because otherwise they could be facing a, a level of, uh, distinction event.
Speaker 2: Um, I have had this-- First of all, fantastic question. I've had this c- conversation or this topic, if you will, discussed at least a dozen times in the past three months alone, right? Um, I have a viewpoint. I will tell you that it's been a fun dinner debate at oftentimes, so I'll share with you my viewpoint. Um, look, the marketing funnel is collapsing. We, we know that, right? Like, the, the awareness level is collapsing. You got the middle here, and then you have, you know, different techniques of trying to drive conversion and performance. So I asked a question at a dinner once, um, it was around tech leaders, if you will. Does brand with a big B still matter? And it was a healthy debate, and look, as a marketer, it pains me to even ask the question 'cause of course, of course, brand matters, right? You want the brand ethen- essence and ethos and the colors and the voice and tone and what it does to still matter. But then you start putting it in a matrix of commodity, price points, w- you know, a product that has, you know, 1,800 different competitors, like, does it really matter? Or do you just, you know, as a consumer, just buy the first three that's recommended, right? So this decision-making tree I think is really critical. You know, as a brand marketer or a B2B marketer or even a service marketer, I do think that they now need to have a multi-tentacle marketing strategy plan. Yes, you still have to convert your customers, reach new customers, and find ways to retain them, but now you also have to think about the agents, and the agents are very much going to be sometimes maybe even the more direct way of converting a client. So not only do you have to think about what is your brand saying on your website, your influencers, creatives, think about the reviews. They don't-- They matter more than ever, right? And then, you know, I hate to say it, but there are communities such as Reddit and others that play a very powerful role. Until we have clearer guidance around governance and which citations and scrubbing through what, which ones are fraud versus not, right now we're playing in a world where sometimes-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... the louder you speak, the louder you make a noise, you do get served, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about recommendations, ratings, recommendations, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, of course they're, they're obviously extremely important in terms of this journey, but they can be gored fortunately as well.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Uh, and I know that you've had problems with that in the States in the past as it was less regulated.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, I think in the UK and Europe there's a much higher degree of regulation in place, uh, around-
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Definitely more than the States
Speaker 1: ... ratings and reviews.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and I imagine that this debate will only accelerate further regulation, which has obviously got to be a, a good thing as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, how should people be thinking in terms of the content that they're crafting and creating and why-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... as this journey's changing?
Speaker 2: You know, I still, as a true diehard marketer, I still think that at the end of the day you need to be speaking to your core customer. So do not betray your brand of who you are, right? Continue to target the customers that are really in need of your service or product. And then I always say this, but, um, you know, if you're not showcasing what problem you're solving for or what you're going to deliver, regardless of whether there's AI and compressed funnels and different technology-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... the branding is just not good then. So, you know, I think that there are different ways that you have to look at it, and if I give you a little bit more of a tangible recommendation, um, if I were to guide my marketing group, I would certainly tell them that they not just have to think about the brand umbrella, but they now have to think about everywhere that it could possibly live. Now we're getting smarter with different creative agents and different creative technology and tools. How do you splice and dice that creative? How do you customize it? How do you serve it up in that right moment to that customer, whether they're looking at it through GEO or whether through a, it's a creator or influencer, which is absolutely a big area for us in terms of voice and, um, product identification.
Speaker 1: Mm. And how should marketers be looking at perhaps finding eq-equilibrium might be a good way of describing it, or a balance between sort of brand and demand?
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Or, or should they be looking for, for solutions that perhaps deliver both?
Speaker 2: I think that, I think certainly both would be great. I think it's hard to do both. Um, you know, I think it's going to depend on the product and the company. So def- definitely in ter- in terms of where you are in the stage of your business. You know, are you a well-known brand? Are you a brand that actually needs, you know, a little bit more traction in your business? But when you're thinking about demand, the messaging does differ, right?
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: The messaging differs, who you go to, it differs. Um, also in terms of how you want to, uh, accentuate the different values of your product or service is going to be different versus just trying to build brand loyalty.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So in my world, considering that I've always worked in the B2B marketing lens, only straddled B2C for about three years, I always say try to market to demand first.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's gonna be harder for people to, to develop brand over time? Why I'm saying that is I believe that the importance of websites is gonna change.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's changed already.
Speaker 1: Um-
Speaker 2: Absolutely
Speaker 1: ... they're gonna become less important.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, or perhaps take on a new purpose.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think, um, you know, I'm going to say take on a new purpose.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Um, I don't think websites, and I, I have, I did not even think this before AI became the topic of the year, but, um, I don't think websites are really a go-to destination. I think it should serve, I hate to say it, but kind of like an, as an arsenal, an arsenal of content and materials that, you know, you put out there through all of your different marketing elements and techniques, and then you can bring back a client into or a partner into or a sponsor.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But frankly speaking, a website is, it's housing content.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: That's kind of how I look at it. If you think about the world of where content is, content can live anywhere and everywhere. So will websites still have a purpose? Maybe a fundamental foundational one, but is it going to be critical in my marketing strategy? I'm not so sure that it will be.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the only, the, the, the fundamental purpose still being the point of conversion?
Speaker 2: Fundamental pur- Well, it depends.
Speaker 1: Or perhaps not.
Speaker 2: Perhaps not, right?
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: 'Cause you can convert... I mean, if you are a brand or product that needs to get purchased and add to cart, that cart can be anywhere.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: Does not have to be on the website, right? If it's more about signing up for a service, you can do that anywhere. If anything-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... you might be getting faster traction through, through Insta stories, right?
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: Um, but I think the fundamentals is that right now as a brand, any size, you still need to have a house. I'll call it like a marketing house. It needs to house your content, your who you are, what you are, especially if you're gonna need it from press and PR and reporters that need to go there, right? So-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... it serves a purpose, but I don't know that it's going to be required.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I like the house analogy.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: Um, but at the same time, people need to atomize their content. They need to distribute it. They need to get it offsite.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Otherwise, they're not gonna show up for the citations, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, you know, if you think about an, an LLM or a p- let's say a bar scenario. You know, you go into a bar, you meet up with your friends. Someone says something, you think, "Well-" ... scratch your head, think, "Wow, that could be a bit of a tall story."
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: Um, you ask someone else in the bar and they say, "Yeah. Mm, not sure. Maybe that's right, or perhaps some of that's correct."
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh, and then someone else might Google it and, and fact check.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, that's very true.
Speaker 1: Uh, and that happens from time to time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh, and I see the LLMs working in the same way. You know, they, they might go to your site, great, and there's a whole load of bold claims and information there, but if it's not amplified or echoed in other places that have authority as well-
Speaker 2: That's right. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... then you're not gonna get the citations, and you're not gonna be showing up.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh, are there tools or... You know, 'cause it's very hard as well to get that content off of your site and manage that process.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: That's, uh, a manual process, uh, and by the nature of that, it's not scalable.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: It just adds cost, right? 'Cause you need to add more and more people who are dealing with publishers or other websites and so on-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... to get the content out, make sure the content stays fresh. Um, that it needs to be taken down at a point in time, so it's, again, not providing the wrong signal.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, have you seen tools, technologies, ways of being able to manage processes like that? Or do you think at the moment it still is purely kind of human?
Speaker 2: You know, um, I, I do know that there are several companies right now, and I- I'm gonna note, uh, one of my dear friend's company, Anda Gansca, who, uh, is the CEO and founder of Knotch, K-N-O-T-C-H. Um, I think actually you should have her on the show is one thing I will tell you.
Speaker 1: Cool.
Speaker 2: Um, we worked with her and, you know, at Samsung, and I was so intrigued, and, and what she was bringing to us two or three years ago has certainly evolved now. And talk about a fierce woman who is on the cutting edge of AI, right? She's really looking at optimization of the path and journey of a customer, and the thing that I love about it is that within your organic path, I don't know if this has been exact number, but I have been told, or I believe, a customer needs to see something five to six times to even think about possibly engaging with a brand, right?
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: I mean, when you're in the industry, it's even more.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So for sales, like, you know, as a sales leader, you would need to have a cust- you know, your potential client see you at least 10 to a dozen times, right? So when you think about that, the customer journey and that optimization-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... is so real.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So think about not just optimizing the messaging of what they might see. How do you serve them up something different? At what point do you literally see a customer fall off that path?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But when you also think about your website, imagine a dynamically optimized website that fits the journey that you mapped. Um, I think N- I think Knotch should certainly speak more to it. Anda sh- certainly should. Um, I'm probably not giving it a full justice, but-
Speaker 1: Sure
Speaker 2: ... there are companies right now that are absolutely reinventing the purpose of the website, the purpose of the journey, and, you know, something that I always go back to, even from my early days, 2015 at Samsung Ads, was how do you ensure that your brand is showing up organically through the path of a customer? I think that is critical in any business you're doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That sounds incredible.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to-
Speaker 2: Thank you
Speaker 1: ... uh, understand more. Um, and I, I can see it as well. I can see this hyper-personalization, but without it being uncanny valley. I think there's that danger as well.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and I, I can see us actually being able to get to a point where we can get the fine-tuning right-
Speaker 2: Yep
Speaker 1: ... uh, and be more useful as well, and perhaps the website becomes much more of a utility, I think is quite a nice way of looking at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, I like that, utility. I was calling it a house, but utility.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: That sounds great. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, I also like the idea of useful brands, you know? And I, I think there's books- I think there is actually a book out there called "Useful Brands".
Speaker 2: There probably is.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And, and how they do that, and how they think in a, a slightly different way-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... and how they provision the customer or the prospective buyer, et cetera-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... with the right information and, and why. But, um, yeah, how, how they have made their websites much more accessible, uh, surface the right content. Um, don't keep putting the same shit in front of someone-
Speaker 2: Absolutely
Speaker 1: ... every time they go back to the site.
Speaker 2: Stop that, right. I mean, get a little creative with the creative, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: At least give me a different creative to react to if the frequency cap is not gonna be, you know, d- diligent enough in itself.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You just mentioned the C word, so creative.
Speaker 1: What does that look like now in terms of-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... the, the world of AI?
Speaker 2: Creative is such a fascinating space for me because, you know, I ha- Look, I had managed an in-house creative studio team. I also would like to believe that I have a creative, um, arm to me or a brain, and when I think about the headlines that I see of like, you know, creatives are going away, they're the first teams that get cut, and, you know, creative now you can do it easily or you can create your own CTV ad within an instant, right?
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Um, I pause because those are headlines. Those are headlines in itself. I like to believe that the way that AI technology is going to help evolve the creative is what's going to be incredible. Now, the creatives that are going to last are the ones who are going to use that technology, right? But the brain power, the thinking behind the creative work, the design, the tonality, all of that still very much has to be human.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think that the second that you don't feel that, to give you an example, right now and today, when you receive an AI content ad, there's a feeling. You know it. No matter how realistic it feels, there's something that's still missing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And w- I don't think that the machine or any technology has really been able to determine that yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When I've seen AI ads, they feel very literal.
Speaker 2: Oh, very much.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Very much.
Speaker 1: They don't feel conceptual.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Uh, and I feel that the art of great advertising is conceptualization, um, and perhaps, uh, an ad that's just slightly abstract to what's being advertised.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Um, and the AI stuff I've seen so far is, you know, I don't know, we've got a bottle of water off here on the table.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: You know, so we've gotta do this, and we've gotta place the water, and someone's gotta be drinking it and, you know.
Speaker 2: It's very staged.
Speaker 1: And it, and it is boring.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh, and it, it, it- Lacks emotion
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: And it lacks st- the story, the storytelling
Speaker 2: It lacks a story. That's really what it is. It lacks a story.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: I think that's where, you know, you know, it's funny, I... At this breakfast this morning, I joked, but I said, "If I hear human in the loop one more time" Like, this is where human does need to stay in the mix, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It still needs to start with the human, and then absolutely use all the tools, convert the different ads, like, you know, make it all different sizes, use tools to make it faster, or just use the tools to help accelerate and accentuate.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: But at the core of it, I do think that humans, especially for the world of creative, still has to be not just in the mix, but has to be the start.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm also thinking in terms of governance as well.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: So do we need to start thinking about how we better regul-regulate ourselves as, as a, uh, industry as we start moving into this brave new world?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think that goes even beyond the creative space. Um, you know, I think it's fair to say that right now there is no clear governance as it relates to AI, period, but certainly in the world of agentic advertising, if you will. Um, I think not just governance, but also standardization, regulations. You know, I will say this, though. When I was thinking about every new emerging tech and advertising medium that has come out, governance always came after, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It always came after.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: But this is a unique case where the tech is just accelerating. It's at the fastest speed, faster than we can, we know to even handle it, that my concern is that governance and regulation is going to be too far behind.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, they're never gonna, they're never gonna be, uh, ahead of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So-
Speaker 1: They're still leg- They're still trying to legislate around the, the internet, the web.
Speaker 2: I completely agree. And I think what gets a little scary about this is that, you know, there is a, you know, let's speak outside of advertising and marketing, but there's an entire world of, you know, how do we protect different generations, our young kids, right?
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Students. How do we protect even adults that are being given fraudulent information through AI, right?
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: I mean, I will tell you right now, I trust AI and I use my LLMs for a lot of things. Things like financials, things like my health, I'm not there yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm not there yet, and certainly nothing in related to confidential information. And then here we are getting served all different types of content that has not been actually abiding by any governance-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... 'cause there isn't any laws.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: There isn't.
Speaker 1: That's interesting, trust. Yeah, I, I like that. I like the idea of trusting or maybe not trusting-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: ... fully trusting your LLM.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of trust, though, um, I've been noodling over this one concept, which, uh, I'm still in the middle of figuring out where my stance is.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: But I was told recently that humans have a deeper trust with machines because it is not another human judging them. There's not another face giving a certain look and a lens.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: And I find that to be disappointing and sad in many ways as a human, right?
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: As for the human race, but at the same time, I can see how there could be some positive upsides to that too.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: In a world where, you know, conversing with, I mean, I hate to put it into healthcare, but therapy, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Or maybe even being able to have an honest dialogue or being able to share moments that perhaps you're uncomfortable sharing with another human. Um, I think it's a tricky fine line to balance.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: But it was disheartening and exciting at the same time to hear that we might be more trusting with a machine. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see it, though.
Speaker 2: I absolutely can.
Speaker 1: You know, I look around here, you see people-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... they're dressed in a particular way or-
Speaker 2: Uh-huh
Speaker 1: ... or, or whatever. You just walk down the street, right?
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Um, and you're taught to read people and categorize and judge to a certain extent.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: And, and that's all part of decisioning-
Speaker 2: Right
Speaker 1: ... of course.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And you don't have that experience talking to a box, right?
Speaker 2: No, you don't.
Speaker 1: Of course, of course you don't.
Speaker 2: So you ask their opinions, and you like to hear what they say, so.
Speaker 1: I remember years back, I think they said that, uh, um, Facebook knows you better than your partner.
Speaker 2: Oh, they sure do, Zach.
Speaker 2: I remember that tagline too. I do.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we're kind of in that new age of AI now. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Exact-exactly. Um, sort of just wrapping things up-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: ... to a, a certain extent, a few quickfire questions.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: So, uh, a business or brand that you admire at this point in time that's showing out in a particular way?
Speaker 2: Um, I'll tell, I'll tell an organization if that's okay-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... 'cause that's, that's kind of where my mind is. Um, AAO stands for Agentic Advertising Organization. It's a nonprofit. I am very fascinated and intrigued by what they are building and believing in, so creating governance and standardization in this world. I mean, it's new.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's a very early-stage organization, but I'm here for it. I'm here for it, and I'm curious to see what they can help move the needle on. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Brilliant. Um, a go-to resource for yourself to stay sharp and keep learning. You know, you t-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... you talk about yourself as a student.
Speaker 2: Someone recently asked me this, and, um, I'm gonna say a pretty unpopular answer. I follow Andreessen Horowitz, like, all the time. I mean, A16z, I am constantly seeing what new businesses, what new emerging companies are coming out, and I like to kind of take the pulse and needle of different VCs and PEs, and I say this because you can hear a lot about different studies and reports and interviews and industry-wide stats that are being said, but I wanna actually see what's being built, and I wanna see who's taking off. Where are the rocket ships? So as you can see, my head is in the founder space.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's, that's where my nose is in right now.
Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah, we came across some rocket ships for sure yesterday-
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm sure
Speaker 1: ... uh, when we went to the Prompta event. Um, final question. So, you know, a younger individual who is curious by the, you know, the world of marketing, advertising, or actually perhaps interested in tech and getting into an AI business-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: What should they be thinking about at this point in time, uh, and why? How should they maybe be applying themselves?
Speaker 2: You know, it's a great question and one that I wish I could kind of take myself back to, let's say, early career of young professional, right? This is such an exciting time where I will say everyone is a student, regardless of whether they'd like to admit it or not. So imagine graduating or being a young professional, you have all of the tools at your fingertips. You could become an AI ex- expert better than the person that's been a seasoned veteran for 20, 30, 40 plus years.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Because it's being defined right now. That's why I always say, like, I feel a little bit like a kid in a candy shop.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: There's so many things to try out. There's so many w- avenues and paths to take. I find the, um... I like to operate sometimes in the vague and uncertainty. A lot of folks get uncomfortable by the un- um, the lack of clarity of where a world or industry is heading. I love it. I thrive in that space.
Speaker 1: Yeah. When we were meeting 21-year-olds yesterday-
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: Well, actually between the age of 17 and maybe 25-
Speaker 2: Tremendous. Amazing
Speaker 1: ... who have built businesses that are, are, you know, worth multi-billions.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, this is a world where I'm telling you, I think not just gender, but also generational gaps are going to change.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Because the acceleration of AI, it gives you the tools at your fingertips.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I'd say lean in, be a student, get excited, and I will always say this to myself as well, don't be afraid to try.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: I know that sounds so cliché, but this whole notion of like, "Ah, I'm not ready yet. I feel, you know, behind," or, you know, the whole imposter syndrome-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... gotta throw that out of the door or throw it out the window.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's only limited to the bounds of your imagination, right? And your, uh, ability to identify and solve problems.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Be a kid in the candy shop again. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Love it. You've been an incredible guest on the show. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, John. This was wonderful. I appreciate it.