The Contact Sport

Speaker 1: So I'm really delighted to welcome to this edition of the Business of Marketing-

Speaker 2: Yeah. Um-

Speaker 1: ... recorded live here in the Dept Garden. Um-

Speaker 2: What's happening? Anyways

Speaker 1: ... in Cannes Lions 2026. It's hot, but this is gonna be an even hotter conversation. I've got Emma Newman, who's the Chief Revenue Officer at- for EMEA of PubMatic with me. Emma, um, I think this is gonna be sort of a conversation all about sort of what it takes to kind of run revenue in ad tech when the product is not just about performance, but it's about trust.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: You kind of sit, I guess, gonna- kind of at that point where growth, regulation, platform power, privacy, and AI all collide. Um, loving the idea of kind of talking about what that fusion-

Speaker 2: Wow

Speaker 1: ... you know, creates.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Speaker 1: So let's get into it. Um-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... so first of all, I suppose, why don't we start with, um, the fact that you're leading the EMEA business at a point that you describe as an industry inflection point.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: What does that mean?

Speaker 2: I think... So I've been in digital marketing since 1999. Uh, publisher side, well, portal as it was then. Um, stay pu- and actually, stay publisher side, I guess all of my digital career since I, uh, until I joined PubMatic. Um, and the reason why I joined PubMatic was that I wanted to, to continue to support publishers, but I really wanted to work for a pure play tech company. Um, I knew programmatic was going to be the way that advertising was going to be transacted. Um, the CEO at the time, well, he's the CEO now, but he said at the time that every ad will be digital and every digital ad will be transacted programmatically. Um, he said that when I joined, you know, 12 years ago, and we continue to say that today. I think for me, you know, the industry, the reason I stay, I've stayed in the industry so long is because it's an industry in constant change. And so you, you know, every two years, I feel like I'm almost working in a different industry. I certainly feel like I have a different job, or I'm dealing with different set of circumstances. Um, and I think at the moment, it's particularly interesting for all of those reasons that you've described, you know, this inflection point of how do we continue to drive revenue? How do we continue to support premium publishers? How do we drive efficiency and effectiveness for the, for the buyers? How do we increase yield for publishers? How do we deal with regulation, which in EMEA we, we have GDPR, which is, you know, a level playing field, I guess, but each market then has a difference, you know, different twist on the regulation or a different layer on top of that. So that's always interesting when you're trying to do multi-market campaigns or m- rolling out a, you know, a product across multiple markets. So that's really interesting. But for me, the real inflection here is what is the role that AI is going to take in simplifying and streamlining, streamlining the, the ad- the advertis- the digital advertising supply chain. So for me, that's the, that's the bit that's interesting. That's what's getting me out of bed every day.

Speaker 1: Gonna get more into that in a minute. When you look across EMEA-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... what, what are you kind of seeing? What are kind of customers asking for more, you know, and what are they kind of almost like losing patience with?

Speaker 2: Um, do you know what's really interesting? They d- nobody ever asks for less, do they? You know, it's like, "Yes, we've done that. Now could we have this on top of this?" And, "Oh, and what about this on top of this?" I think that what, I think what they're asking for more of hasn't necessarily changed in terms of they want transparency, they want quality, they want to work with trusted platforms and trusted partners. They want to make sure that, you know, it's a data safe environment. They want to ensure that their consumer that they've spent many years from, if you're thinking about publishers or even retailers, actually now, retail is really interesting because they're moving into this space, and they're very protective of their customer. You know? They have a history and a legacy and a heritage that they've built, spent years building, and that trust with their customer, they absolutely categorically will not break that. So helping them sort of go on this journey, if you like, and ha- helping them to-

Speaker 2: ... ensuring them that we are not going to damage that, that relationship that they've built. So that's what people are asking for, and they're asking for more of it. But what they're really asking for is how do you do all of that, but how do you do it in a way that's more efficient, more effective, um, delivers a greater ROI for a buyer, but also delivers greater working media or return on, I guess, customer viewing, um, for the, for the publisher. So I just feel like it's everything that everybody's asked for over the years and y- that we've delivered as an industry, that now is now just table stakes. You know? So I feel like it's the table stakes that have increased, and it's, okay, what more can we deliver on top of that?

Speaker 1: And is there a difference between sort of those sort of EMEA kind of like demands versus rest of world?

Speaker 2: Not really. Not really. There are nuances-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... obviously. Um, but I think, again, those table stakes have remained, are consistent across the world. There'll be different things in different regions. So APAC is, APAC is very much a mobile first region. Um, North America has a different CTV landscape to EMEA. EMEA CTV is d- is still predominantly dominated either by the big streamers or by the broadcasters. So the broadcasters still ha- you know, have an in- um, an incredibly important role to play. Um, that's not necessarily been the situation in either North America or APAC. So I think there are nuances, but it's a global, you know, we, we operate in a global way.

Speaker 1: You've, again, sort of been talking about sort of platform concentration, privacy change, and AI acceleration kind of all hitting-

Speaker 2: At the same time

Speaker 1: ... you at once, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Um, kind of tell me more about that kind of like, you know, what, what, what's the effect of, of, of, you know, these, these kind of, these, these kind of- ... huge kind of like, uh, I suppose sort of like, you know, drivers. Um, you know, what's it ha- what impact is it having on kind of commercial decisions and, and, and how you're kind of operating the business?

Speaker 2: So I think first and foremo- I mean, I can think about it in a sort of a couple of- couple of sectors or areas, if you like. I think first and foremost there's the human side of it. You know, there's been a lot of fear around the impact that AI is going to have on people's livelihoods and, and their jobs, you know? So we're very much of the opinion that, yes, it's going to drive efficiency and effectiveness, but it's gonna drive efficiency and effectiveness in the, in the, in the work that's, that is repeatable, you know, that's always there. And as a consequence of that, the upside is it's going to drive the ability for the human element, the human interaction, the, the strategic thinking, the critical thinking, the spending time with your customer, whether it's us spending time with our publisher or our buyer, or a buyer spending time with their brand, or a publisher being able to spend more time with their con- with their, with their, um-

Speaker 1: Flat concept

Speaker 2: ... with their viewer. You know, that's what, for me, that's what AI is enabling people to do. And so they... You know, we've done a lot of work of taking our team on that particular understanding. So I think there's the human side. I think there is the, the decision around technology and infrastructure. So how do you as an organization ensure that your infrastructure is, you know, is fit for purpose to, to, to run in an agentic world, an AI-driven world? We've done a lot of work on that space. You know, we've, you know, in order for us to be able to provide the level of service that we want to be able to for our customer, we need to make sure that our technology and our, our infrastructure, our data centers are fit for purpose. So five years ago we started a relationship with NVIDIA, which at the time was very... could've been quite risky, you know, 'cause we didn't quite know where this was going to go.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And it's quite an investment. We also, by the way, own all of our own infrastructure.

Speaker 1: Ah.

Speaker 2: We own our own data centers. We made that decision 14, 15 years ago so that we could own, so we had more control. Um, so we're not at the whims of-

Speaker 1: That's amazing

Speaker 2: ... you know, somebody else, frankly.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Uh, we wanna be able to control our own destiny. So that was a decision that we made that, you know, again, felt potentially risky, but now looking back in hindsight was cri- you know, was an intelligent decision to make. We started to work with NVIDIA five years ago, as I said, because we needed to increase the computing power of the infrastructure that we had. Can't just keep piling on additional infrastructure, additional infrastructure. That's not efficient, effective, and it's incredibly costly. So there's that decision, which is actually, do I have the technology and the infrastructure in place to be able to take advantage of everything that AI and agentic is gonna, is gonna bring to the industry? So we decided that we would do that. Then the other thing is about how do we then show to our customers, both buyers and both pu- buyers and publishers, how do we show to them the impact that this can have on their or- on their businesses? Um, and for us it's really about how do we show to a buyer that by adopting, you know, a partner that is dr- that is built on AI, um, that's run an agen- that's running an agentically operated system, what does that, what does that mean for you? And I feel as though sort of for the last 18 months, maybe 12 months or so, we've been talking about the ambition of what this could actually mean, and really for the first six months of this year we've been realizing that ambition-

Speaker 1: Right

Speaker 2: ... and actually being able to show tangible results to our customers. If you run a campaign agentically either through the platform or if you run an agent-to-agent campaign, you know, we are seeing exponential decreases in campaign setup time. You know, the optimization is e- you know, improved beyond any, any reasonable doubt because an agent can talk to an agent and optimize something before you even realize it's going wrong. You know? So that's been incredible. And as a consequence, the delivery that we've been able to achieve for them against their KPIs, whether that's CPM, whether that's number of impressions delivered, whether that's, you know, um, video s- uh, view-through rates, whatever that may be, again, you know, we are seeing exponential, and I keep saying that word but I can't think of another one 'cause it's really hot.

Speaker 2: Um, seeing exponential, um, increases in whatever those metrics are. And in fact, we've done a couple of head-to-heads against maybe other partners, and we are generally outperforming them, um, across, you know, all of, most if not all of those metrics. Um, we've done some recent campaigns with some whole cos, uh, in Europe, um, and also obviously in the other regions. Uh, and each of them have had a different, different nuance into the KPI, and we've been able to, we've been able to deliver against those. So that, so those customers are seeing a real return on the investment there. Um, they're setting campaigns up faster, their campaigns are delivering better, they're reducing wastage, they're reducing time, um, and that's really important for them. For the publisher it means that actually because we're compressing the supply chain and because buyers are able to bid into, directly into the supply, they are actually capturing more of that media spend. So that's, you know, that's really what we've seen. When I say turning it from ambition to actual reality, uh, that's, those are the kinds of results that we've been able to deliver for our, for our customers.

Speaker 1: That, and that new reality I wanna sort of just, um, sort of, um, focus a little bit on kind of presents, you know, potentially kind of a, a trade-off between growth and trust. I mean, you just talked about sort of agent-to-agent decision-making.

Speaker 2: Mm.

Speaker 1: You know, you've been very clear about sort of durable value, you know, comes from good governance and transparent economics and principal decision-making, but in an AI, an AI sort of assisted or agent-to-agent kind of world, doesn't that get sort of difficult to, to manage, and how do you deal with that?

Speaker 2: I, from our perspective, no.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: So I think there's... You t- you used that word trust, and I think that's incredibly important, right? So because at the end of the day, we are still a human-to-human business. Or is, we're just a human-to-human industry. There's 7,000- there's 70,000 people here. I think that proves the point, right? Um, and so, but it- Um, I since wiped this. Whenever you're asking anyone, whether it's an organization or a person, whether it's about AI or something else, to do something new, okay, there is always going to be a degree of trepidation and a degree of, "Well, what if this goes wrong?" Um, and so we've been around for 20 years. We celebrate our 20- 20th anniversary at the back end of this year. So we have spent 20 years building trusted relationships, initially with the publishers, um, but most, you know, over the last decade or so, with the buyers, and whether that's a DSP or whether it's a brand directly or whether it's of an agency. So we have a legacy, um, and we've built this degree of trust. So when a- an organization or a human is embarking on something that is unknown to them, they are going to go to a partner where they have, you know, we have consistently delivered- Yeah ... um, what we have said we are going to deliver i- within the, the framework of trust that we have built with them. So, yeah, I wouldn't recommend you go and try this with someone that you've never worked with before. I strongly recommend you go and talk to a partner that you've built that relationship with because you trust them and they trust you. So that's the trust piece. Now, the governance piece, um, again, if, you know, we have purposely built into our agentic operating system- Oh ... a degree of governance where at any point in that workflow, someone can say, "Right, at that point, I want, I want it to stop, and I want a human to come in and oversee what's happened," and then the human to agree, "Right, okay, I'm comfortable with that. We can now move to the next stage." Um, and I think initially, you know, you're gonna get, you're gonna have more human intervention or human oversight. But as people become more comfortable with what, what this is, you know, I think that's going to relax a little more. But we've very consciously built our, our operating system so that any point, you know, a human can say, "I want... I'm comfortable to this point, and then I wanna, and then I wanna oversee it. And then, you know, and then I'm comfortable until this point, and then I wanna oversee it." Um, and some people are just going, "You know what? I've done three or four tests, and I'm pretty, I'm pretty comfortable with where we're at now." Um, so, you know, you can run it from agent to agent all the way through. Let's talk a little bit about kind of AI and what it changes, but what it doesn't. You know, you frame this as, as we've talked about already, kind of an AI-driven period for the industry. Mm-hmm. What are you seeing in the kind of commercial conversation that feels genuinely new rather than just kind of good marketing? Why that? You know. What's genuinely new? I think there are a couple of things. I think first and foremost, people are understanding that there is, that you can actually simplify the supply chain. I think a few years ago, everyone was talking about supply chain simplification. Everyone was talking about the ad tech tax, you know, yada, yada, yada, yada. Um, I think what this has done is actually proven that you can simplify the supply chain and deliver not just the same, but better results. So I think that, again, it was, like, something that we've been talking about for a long time. It was an ambition of, you know, m- most people within the, within, uh, the a- the ad tech industry, and we've actually now started to realize that ambition. So I think- Yeah ... people are genuinely... People have always talked about simplification of supply chain with a degree of cynicism, I think. Um, I think that cynicism has gone away, so I think that is genuinely new. What hasn't changed, and I think I've gone back to this point, is that we are still a human-to-human- Yeah ... industry. You know, it is a, I, I sort of joke, jokingly say that sales is a contact sport, and I mean that in the nicest possible way. I am going to do business. I don't care about your technology. If I don't know you, I don't know, I haven't built a trusted relationship with you, and there's, chances are I'm probably not going to do business with you. So that bit hasn't changed. In fact, I think that's become more important- I, I agree ... especially because, because of, you know, the automation, um, and that, that agentic piece. You know, knowing that I can pick up the phone or someone can pick up the phone to me, and I'm gonna pick up the phone and have a conversation with them because we have a relationship, I think it's almost become more important. And I think events like this are a demonstration of that, isn't it? Yeah, I've done- Yeah ... 47 meetings in four days. Uh, by the way, I don't recommend that for anybody. Um, but I think it's because people do wanna come and have a conversation with someone to say, "Tell me, like, tell me about this really." Like, "I've- Yeah ... I've read your, I've read- Yeah ... your webpage." Yeah. "And, you know- Yeah ... and I've seen the case studies, but I wanna actually come and have a conversation with you and dig into the, and dig into the weeds a bit more." Gives me great hope. Um, tell me a little bit about kind of how AI is changing, I suppose in a sense, kind of the balance of power between buyers, sellers, and the companies in the middle. How's the ecosystem evolving? I don't think it's necessarily... What I think it's done, I think it's sort of leveled the playing field a little bit. What I think is really interesting is that certainly on the agentic piece, and actually maybe this is new, if we go back to your previous question. I feel like the ability to transact programmatically, this is helping to democratize that, um, a little bit more. You know, in the past, programmatic was quite resource-heavy. You know, you needed significant investment in technology, but also people. Um, and as a consequence, it wasn't necessarily available to maybe small independent agencies or even brands that had in-house, and they in-house and realize, "Oh, actually this is slightly more complicated than I thought." It was true. This- "And I'm gonna have to invest in maintaining a platform, and I'm actually gonna have to hire some programmatic specialists." And, and then it suddenly doesn't become maybe as efficient to in-house as perhaps people had thought in the past. I think this is, I think this is enabling that democratization of being able to buy Programmatically. I think it's also enabling-

Speaker 1: That's right

Speaker 2: ... the accessibility of premium inventory, um-

Speaker 1: Right. That's fine. Um, when I do that

Speaker 2: ... via the programmatic, uh, tr- via, via programmatic trading. I think that is also sort of leveling the playing field a little bit. So I've... Again, you talked, you said the word hope earlier on. This, this gives me hope actually, and I think it means that we can bring new money-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... um, into the ecosystem.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And that means I can drive greater ROI for my buyers, but also I can put... I can make sure that more working media that maybe those premium publishers that we work with weren't able to access 'cause it was just too difficult. Um, I'm hoping that, you know, that we're able to unlock new pockets of spend that perhaps weren't available to, to us in the, in the past.

Speaker 1: That's a great answer. I wanna go back to the EMEA sort of points I was sort of making very briefly at the beginning. Um, I'm just curious really, I think, around kind of how you kind of decide, you know, kind of, that, you know, around sort of what needs to be kind of standardized, centralized versus localized across the region, 'cause it's such a, such a different region.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and trust me, every country manager tells me, "But you don't understand."

Speaker 2: "It's different in country-"

Speaker 1: Right

Speaker 2: "... enter whichever one you want."

Speaker 1: And you say?

Speaker 2: I know that. And because it is different everywhere, it's kind of the same everywhere as well. Uh, or you get the, "That won't work here." Um, it's like, great. Uh, some more information would be helpful. Um, what do I think? Look, as much as possible, we want to... Obviously we want to, we want to not centralize it, but we want, you know, we want consistency. You know, we are a global organization. More and more, we are working with global organizations. You know, we have global publishers. We have global buyers. Um, we have audiences that are managed by a publisher in one country, but they actually sit in a completely different country. So as much as possible, we want to behave like a global organization, and we do behave glo- like a global organization because there are benefits in having scale. But we are also very aware, you know, that there are different regulations in other markets. Um, and so we need to be able to ensure that we are, um, we are supporting those and adhering to those. Uh, we are aware that, you know-

Speaker 1: Absolutely. So-

Speaker 2: ... one market might be very mobile-heavy versus another market which might be very broadcaster-heavy versus another market which might be very traditional streamer. I can't believe I'm saying traditional before the word streamer, but, you know, that we-

Speaker 1: Traditional streamers. I love it

Speaker 2: ... I know. It's ridiculous. Um, that's how, you know, embedded they are now. You know, they may be more traditional streamer led. Um, if you're a broadcaster, they're gonna have different, uh, creative compliances, so we've had to make sure that we can work with the likes of Clearcast, for example, in the UK, and there's an equivalent in France, and there's an equivalent in Germany. Of course, everybody does it quietly differently. So, um, so as much as possible, I would say that 80% of what we try and do is standardized from a global approach, but there's always that 80/20 rule, right? So there's gonna be 20% where we're gonna say, "Actually, okay. Well, to be successful in this market, we're going to have to do this." And fortunately, I have an organization that totally understands that. Um, I have very flexible, you know, legal team that will help accommodate wherever we can, a product team that will help accommodate wherever we can, um, and a, and a, a, a, you know, a GTM team that understands that we can take things to market, but there's always gonna be a level of, of localization.

Speaker 1: How do you sort of pick up signals in a market that, uh, apply to the rest of the region from an efficiency and effectiveness perspective?

Speaker 2: What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1: Well, basically, let's just say that you've noticed in Turkey that something is popping.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And you go, "Holy shit."

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Excuse me for swearing. Um-

Speaker 2: Don't worry

Speaker 1: ... I can do this across the whole of EMEA-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... and that's gonna drive this much growth, this much efficiency.

Speaker 2: I think first and foremost, you know, even though I'm running multiple markets, I have a very tight leadership team. Uh, and my leadership team is sort of split into those country leads, as I mentioned. Um, and also then I have functional leads. So I have a l- a head of commerce, a head of CTV, a head of, you know, audience, for example. And, and we sit down and talk to each other at least once a week as a group, and as part of that conversation it's like, "What's happening in your market?" So I'm very reliant on my team surfacing things to me, and they are very vocal. Um, some- sometimes slightly too much. But, um, but they're not, they're not shy at coming forward and telling me what they're seeing. Um, and I guess some of it is just experience, you know? I've been doing this a long time now, so there'll be something... And I can't al- it's not always tangible, but you'll kind of go, "Actually, that sounds really interesting." Um, and because we have global, global customers, I can maybe go and speak to, let's... It's, it's raised by, I don't know, whole co X in Mena, and then I can go and speak to whole co, same whole co different person in Germany and go, "Hey, what are you, uh, what are you hearing about this?" Um, and so it's really... Again, and again, this is where that human interaction-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... really comes into play.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: You know? A lot of it is about taking experience, le- learning from what we've done in the past. You can kind of... Some of it is a bit gut feel. It's like, "That could be interesting." And because we're constantly talking to each other and because we're very open as an organization, you know, everybody writes the call reports, everybody has access to all of those conversations. We have great internal AI tools. I could literally put a topic into the AI tool, ask it to scan every call report that's been logged for the last quarter, and then give me the data and say, "Well, actually that conversation has happened here, and it's happened over here, and it's happened over here." So we're using our AI tools internally to ensure that we are maintaining a level of insight into those conversations that are happening that maybe I wouldn't know about because one's happening in Singapore and one's happening in Mexico. Um, so it's really about using that technology, and that technology is where... That's enabling to me to surface trends, um, and make decisions much more quickly.

Speaker 1: Love it Talking of trends, and it's way more than a trend, but another big topic obviously again this year, but perhaps even more, is creators. You, I think it was last-

Speaker 2: Creators, yes

Speaker 1: ... creators. And I think last week, didn't you-

Speaker 2: We did make an announcement

Speaker 1: You did. You, you announced Creator Marketplace, right?

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: Now, tell me what the thinking was behind that, and how do you see that changing the way creator-led business is monetized?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not as close to that.

Speaker 1: That's okay, 'cause it's very current and I just wanna throw it in.

Speaker 2: It's very current. It's, um, it's North America only at the moment-

Speaker 1: Okay. That's-

Speaker 2: ... so I'm aware of the release.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Look, I think the reality is, it's really interesting. I did a different... Other podcasts are available, so I diff- I did a different podcast last week, and we were talking about the monetization of live sport, and obviously we're in the mid-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... it was the day of the, the first England game.

Speaker 1: Got it.

Speaker 2: So we're all feeling hopeful. Uh, actually, that was okay. The last one, not so much. Um, and we... And I was having a conversation, and it was, uh, a publisher and, um, a representative from YouTube. And we were... And, you know, YouTube were really talking about, you know, the rise of the creator economy, um, and how brands are thinking about tapping into that cultural zeitgeist, and I do think it is a cultural zeitgeist. If you think about the World Cup, let's take the World Cup as a, a really good example 'cause it's very current. You know, there are one or two predominantly broadcasters in each market where they have the rights to show the live games. And, and that's, that's fantastic. Um, and, you know, the ability for a brand to engage with that particular moment in time has never been more, uh, has never been easier, especially with programmatic, 'cause you can tap into extra time a- and things like that. But it's this whole adjacency of content that's-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... being created around those, that 90 minutes, okay? And that's what's, for me, is really interesting, and I think that's what we are, you know, we are thinking about how do we tap into that? How do we make it easier for a brand to connect with that moment, that cultural moment, um, via, via programmatic pipes? So, I mean, who knew that Kate Bur- the Kate Burdy goalkeeper was gonna be the star of the show? You know, nobody had heard of him until that, you know, they- they literally parked the bus in front of Spain. But, you know, this p- this man has gone from 600,000 Instagram followers to, I don't know, like 27 million or something ridiculous. And brands that are smart can really tap into that moment, and I think that's really the thinking behind, you know, what we're, what, what, what we're thinking about with the Creator Marketplace.

Speaker 1: I love it. Exciting. Watch this space.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Um-

Speaker 2: Well, watch many spaces, in fact.

Speaker 1: Well, indeed. Um, so you have roles in marketing, business operations-

Speaker 2: Yep

Speaker 1: ... commercial-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... AOL, Microsoft-

Speaker 2: Yep

Speaker 1: ... Clear Channel.

Speaker 2: Now you're aging me, but yeah-

Speaker 1: Sorry

Speaker 2: ... carry on

Speaker 1: I, I won't go any further. Um, right. Um, what of those roles and companies, uh, how have they shaped you? How have they-

Speaker 2: Oh, my-

Speaker 1: ... as a leader?

Speaker 2: How have they shaped me? I think there's a- I think there's a couple of things, right? So the, the, the interesting, as I've looked back, somebody asked me this the other day, and they said, you know, "What is it? Where do you thrive as an or, in an organization?" And if you look at the organizations I've worked for, Microsoft, AOL, Clear Channel, PubMatic, you know, they are very large corporate organizations. Um, but I've always worked almost within, I've worked within the startup of those organizations. You know, MSN was, in fact, a startup. We just happened to be backed by very large private equity partners who just also happened to be Microsoft and owned MSN. You know, AOL, when I joined it, wasn't a startup by any shape or mean, but actually, it kind of was, 'cause it was just coming out from underneath Time Warner. So Tim Armstrong had just been appointed CEO. They were completely restructuring what they were doing. And so in effect, we were, it was a startup. Um, Clear Channel, when I joined Clear Channel UK, again, not a startup, but they just appointed a new CEO, and they had a vision for becoming a digital company. Um, and so, you know, my job was to go in and help them become a digital company, so it's kind of a startup within an established company. PubMatic pretty much was a startup. It probably wasn't a startup startup. I'd say it was a teenager as opposed to being, you know, a toddler. Um, so I've learned that I thrive within that kind of an environment where you can be entrepreneurial, where you can take risks and try new things. And so what it's taught me, actually, is to, is, it's, it's actually taught me to take calculated risks. Um, it's taught me that, you know, when you become a people manager in an organization that's moving as fast as those organizations were, I had to create a s- a, a s- um, I guess, a sa- a space of safety so people could make those calculated decisions. You know, I encourage people to make mistakes- ... um, because if you're not making mistakes, we're never gonna learn. And in an industry that's as fast-paced as digital advertising, and it's always been fast-paced, but I think it's accelerating even more now. If we are not prepared, you know, to give our employees that, that safety net, if you like, then we are not gonna grow. You know? We are not gonna transform. So I think that that's fundamentally what it's taught me. It's also taught me to trust my gut a little bit. You know, I am a da- I'm, by nature, I'm a marketer, so by nature I'm a data-driven person. So it's taught me how to balance those two things and not be swayed entirely by gut feel and not necessarily being held, we call it paralysis by analysis, right?

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: You know, you could, you could just get your head lost in data. Um, and sometimes it's the experience of bringing both of those things together. So, and I, so I'm trying to sort of encourage my teams to also, to do... I mean, make mistakes. Don't make the same mistake twice. Uh, but, you know, do make mistakes, and actually share those mistakes.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: Okay? Especially as we are thinking about how do we adopt AI to increase our efficiency and our effectiveness both internally and externally. You're gonna have to make mistakes. I am the first person to put my hand up and go, "Do you know what? I thought I could do this, and I tried this, and that was an absolute disaster. So guess what, guys? Don't anybody else do that But then I did this, and actually that's okay. And I think you, as a leader, you have to be prepared to be vulnerable, um, if you want your team to also, you know, be open and honest about what they are doing, and what's succeeding, and what is not succeeding. So I guess it's taught me those things. It's also taught me to, you know, you have to know the business. 'Cause if you are gonna do those things, you have to fundamentally know what the business is. Know my customers, know where the revenue is coming from, you know, keep on top of... I mean, the last thing I look at at night is the performance of that day, and the first thing I look at in the morning is, did anything go wrong overnight? Um, you know, and, and either of those things can shape my mood for the rest of the day. But, you know, I'm very lucky that I have that data at my fingertips, accessible 24/7 if I want it. They drive me nuts, but 24/7 if I want it. So I've also had to teach myself to really understand the business and know where the revenue is coming from, because then I can make the right decisions, and I can empower my teams to make the right decisions.

Speaker 1: Talking of empowerment, you've spoken a lot about sort of, um, sponsorship and sort of measurable kind of equity.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Kind of what does, what does that look like when you're trying to widen access?

Speaker 2: Access to what?

Speaker 1: Leadership, growth, diversity, um-

Speaker 2: Um

Speaker 1: ... next generation of talent.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That's a, that's a really interesting question right now, because there is, again, this concern that we are gonna take the bottom rung away from the-

Speaker 1: Absolutely right

Speaker 2: ... you know, the bottom rung of the ladder. And I think we have to very consciously as an industry ensure that we do not do that. It has to be intentional. We have to bring new talent in. And if we take away those entry-level jobs, then where are the leaders of the future?

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: You know? I am hopefully at some point going to retire. I don't know when, um, but... 'Cause I'm frankly having too much fun. But at some point I'm gonna wanna retire, you know? At some point somebody's gonna want my job, and that's great. They absolutely should. But I am r- I am very conscious of making sure that we are still able to bring, you know, that, that next generation in. And so I think that what we need to think about is, all right, so the bottom rung of the ladder as it was-

Speaker 1: Right

Speaker 2: ... has gone away. So what does the new bottom rung of the ladder look like? And actually, do you know what? I need people to come and sit in a meeting and watch how this happens, you know? Um, not just from me, but from, from all leaders. And I think it's r- that's why I also think it's really important that people spend time in the office together. We have three days a week in. Um, and actually my team came to me and said, "We would like to ensure that we are in together at least one or two days a week." So I'm like, "That works for me." And we actually did a vote, and we said, "Right, everybody vote on the days of the week that you would like to come in, and we all agree that the two days that get the most votes, those are the days that we all agree that we're all gonna come in." And actually everybody voted for Tuesday and Thursday anyway, so there wasn't really a problem. And you get to pick the third day, right? Um, so I think that to answer that question about future talent, we have to be really intentional about it. And, and so we think a lot about, okay, what does that look like? From a diversity perspective and an equity perspective, I'm gonna go back to data. You have to figure out where you are. Okay? So you're gonna have to take a hard look at where you are, and accept that that's where you are. Because until you do that, if you don't acknowledge that, okay, you are not gonna be able to move forward. Um, you know, and we are, we are very cognizant of making sure that... I'm not a particular, uh, supporter of positive discrimination. I will always hire the best person for the job. What I am a big supporter of, making sure that I have a diverse candidate pool from which to, you know, make that decision. Um, I make sure that we have diverse interview panels, you know? If, if you're a woman coming in for a job and you're interviewed by a panel of four men, that's not, that's, that's not gonna be a great experience. Uh, they could be lovely, by the way, and I hope that they are, but the reality is you wanna come in and see yourself reflected. Um, and so there are some really simple things that you can do as an organization to first attract diverse, just attract diverse candidates. Try as best you can to have a diverse w- workforce, but not at, not at the expense of hiring the right person, 'cause you're not doing anybody any favors at that point. And then just, just, and just make sure that there is equity of opportunity. And I think that's where maybe people have slightly come unstuck, where they think everything has to be equitable, and everything has to be equal, and we need to have 50/50 of this. No, we need equity of opportunity. And then the cream will rise to the top. But we need to be able to enable that.

Speaker 1: So for someone who's having too much fun to retire-

Speaker 1: ... kind of thing, um-

Speaker 2: I mean, by the end of today I may have changed my mind

Speaker 1: What makes you feel so optimistic about the direction of this market from here?

Speaker 2: I re- I really love change. I really, I quite like disruption. I know it's not for everybody, um, but it definitely is for me. I love the ability to continue to learn. Um, I like to be able to make a... I like to go home every day and go, "I've actually made a difference today," whether it's to an individual that works for me, whether it's to a customer that partners with us, or maybe I've signed a deal that, you know, has been on the table for a while. I like to be able to go home at the end of the day go, "Right, I've done that today." I feel, I feel, I feel like I've earned my pay. Um, and I think this is an industry that enables you to do that. If you lean into this industry, this industry is gonna really support you. Um, there is so much opportunity out there. Um, and I, and I s- you know, I just walk down the Croisette, you know, and there are so many new brands, and, um, partners, and technology that's, that's, that wasn't there even a year ago, you know? And that tells me that this, for, this is for me. This is why I get out of bed every day. I'm, I really bore people about this. I'm so sorry. I'm gonna bang on about it forever, but, you know, this industry has been good to me. Um-

Speaker 1: And you've been good for this industry, Emma.

Speaker 2: I hope so. I hope so.

Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us on the Business of Marketing.