The Big Tent

Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to this episode of the Business of Marketing, recorded live here at Cannes Lions 2026. I'm delighted to welcome my guest today, it's Fredrik Borestrom, who's the world president and chair of the International Advertising Association. I'm very, uh, honored, uh, to have you in my presence. Um, so look, this is a conversation, I suppose, in a sense, about sort of what it takes to kind of hold together, without being too grandiose, a global advertising industry when the pressures are increasingly everywhere we look, to be honest, but geopolitical, technological, commercial. I guess, you know, I'm looking forward to this one because, you know, you're not, you're not sort of just coming at this as a commentator. You've spent years kind of, you know, at the coal face somewhat, building partnerships, leading chapters, running boards, trying to make kind of industry institutions useful in the real world. You know, and you are practitioning sort of today as well, right? So I guess let's start with that kind of, that, that sort of first sort of, um, sort of perspective, I suppose, you know, kind of about what a global industry body is for now. You know, what, what sort of, you know, do you... Jo- you know, kind of job do you think a body like this needs to do well in '26?

Speaker 2: Uh, first of all, thank you very much for having me. It's, uh... I've been a longtime listener of your podcast, so it's, uh, it's always nice to kind of finally be able to, like, uh, scale the heights and be part of it as well. So, uh, thank you very much for hosting, especially given this week when it's so incredibly busy. Um, you know, I think as an industry, we, we are faced now with more pressures, more fast-moving changes, and just increased demands on all different participants that are in it, right? If you think about marketers, think about agencies, think about platforms, media owners. So there's, there's kind of a barrage of things coming at you all the time and, and, you know, we as the International Advertising Association, we are here to really provide global perspectives to global marketing professionals and marketers. And, you know, how do we then champion our industry and also make sure that it's built within a kind of responsible, sustainable way? Uh, because I think that if you're in a marketing role today or in an agency role, you, you just are having to do much more with less, right? I think this, that's the current macroeconomic climate is like that, and they often look to organizations like us to help provide perspectives, a point of view, or just create a forum for conversation and exchanging of ideas and perspectives. Everyone can learn more and actually come back and be more productive and more successful in their day jobs. Um, I just came from a, a roundtable that we hosted today with, with our partner Nielsen around the power of sponsorship in sports, and it was a fascinating conversation, and we had people from Nigeria, India, Austria, Switzerland, Brazil, the UK. Uh, I guess I represent UK and Sweden in some ways, so, so I had... Uh, and we had a woman from Denmark. And so, you know, like, bringing a collective like that together to discuss sometimes meaty topics or just kind of general commercial topics is just kind of great for everyone to just understand better what, what they can kind of take with them back home.

Speaker 1: It's a, a brilliant segue into my next point-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... really, I suppose, 'cause, you know, you've got that kind of global breadth. I mean, what, 56 plus countries. I mean, you just-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... rattled off a load there. What, what are the kind of the issues that just sort of keep coming up wherever you go and wherever you get together?

Speaker 2: Um, so I think it's one common one at the moment, it's obviously the kind of, uh, impact of AI and how that's gonna shape, kind of reshape our industry. So, you know, how do we provide common, like, an area for people to kind of congregate and discuss and try to debate these things? There's one. Um, another one that often comes up as well is like, how do we prove the value of what we're doing, right? I think with, with, again, like with the increased pressures that we're all, all under, we can do more with less. Like, how do you really prove the value of advertising, good marketing? And that's something we talked about today in our, uh, sponsorship roundtable. And I comment on it because I've been living in the UK now for 20 years. When I, uh, first moved here, the company I worked for gave me an Orange subscription to my mobile phone, and I'm a Man United supporter, so I was like, "No, no, I'm gonna have Vodafone as the brand for my mobile phone." I've had that for 20 years. It's hard to kind of draw a line from, like, me watching TV in Sweden to arriving on the shores of the UK and signing up for a mobile provider that I've had since then 2020... 2004, right? So how do we kind of prove that ROI? But I think it's, you know, we as an industry need to make sure that we provide all of our stakeholders with the right tools, the right systems, that they can then prove the value of what they're doing to their stakeholders on the boardroom, CFO, CEO, et cetera.

Speaker 1: You know, you talk about the UK, you talk about Sweden, you talk about, you know, the US, you know, very established kind of markets-

Speaker 2: Mm

Speaker 1: ... in many ways, but then you rattled off a l- whole list of other kind of exciting, dynamic, emerging, um, and, but in some cases, leading kind of markets. What are, what are the things that sort of those, those markets are perhaps teaching us about sort of, you know, how we solve some of the challenges that you just mentioned?

Speaker 2: I think a lot of it is around creativity, to be honest. Um, obviously, like, we, we don't have to go very far when we're in this palace here to kind of think about places like Brazil, which I think is the, the most decorated country in the history of Cannes Lions. They were the country of distinction last year. Um, and I think because, like, markets that are not kind of emerging, but like smaller markets or what kind of like markets where you just need to have more creativity to do more things with less, and I think it's, uh, you know, that's one of the most fascinating things that I get to experience when I'm at events that we host in places like, you know, Malaysia or in Singapore, in Brazil, or in other parts of the world where you just see kind of the market just being incredibly creative and coming up with amazing ideas. And, you know, we firmly believe in, like, the power of creativity to solve some of the biggest problems in the world, and, you know, kind of learning from maybe like less established markets or kind of markets that are- On top of mind, like you say, US, UK, and others, I think it's, it's just a privilege to be able to be

Speaker 1: And I think that's really interesting because ultimately kind of, you know, necessity is often the mother of all invention, right?

Speaker 2: It is. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: What, what are you, what are you kinda seeing that sort of, you know, that, that, where that, that, I mean, and, you know, cla- using a classic-

Speaker 2: Mm

Speaker 1: ... marketing and advertising word, tension.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: What are you seeing from that that's kind of rising to the top?

Speaker 2: So I think it's, you know, it is always kinda sort of like necessity is the mother of invention, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I think that's kinda what they need to kinda do more things with, and I think it's not just kinda like our industry, right? There's probably people within those countries as well. So like, if we can kinda help fuel that they can come up with incredible solutions. And I remember a few years ago, I think maybe it was the first B2B Lion awarded was it fi- four, five years ago, and I remember hearing about it. It was Dole, the, the fruit company. And I was quite surprised when I saw it, and then, um, Rupen, who was the CMO at the time in Asia, he was going to speak at a B2B conference we organized, and I hadn't read the briefing properly, uh, and some of my skills back. I was like, "So why do we have Dole on our panel?" And what they did was when they were harvesting pineapples in Asia, uh, a huge amount of leaves like this, uh, went to waste, right? Uh, and they then worked with a company called Piñatex to create a fake leather of the waste to then, you can then use as a kind of sustainable product in, you know, shoes, bags, jackets. And that again came out of, like, just, like, how do we kinda create the more sustainable kind of, uh, supply chain? How do we utilize some of the waste that we have when we're making our products? And how do we use creativity to really solve something like this that then actually comes out with a, an amazing product that's now also vegan? So, you know, it's, um... That's, like, an incredible campaign. If people haven't seen it, I, I urge them to go and watch it because, yeah, it's, um, very interesting. Um-

Speaker 1: I love that. What a brilliant example. Just thinking about kind of, you know, the association itself, and you, you know, you've been, you've been, you've been doing this for a while now, and as you said, you know, the world's moving so fast. What do members and corporate partners kind of need from a global industry body now that maybe they didn't need, say, five years ago?

Speaker 2: So I think that there's the different needs in different markets-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... to be completely honest. And I think, like, what we're trying to do is, obviously, like, we're a global organization. We have chapters in over 40 countries in the world. We are represented in 56 countries in the world. Um, but we're very much a, a flat organization. It's not just because I'm Swedish that we believe in those things, but I think it's, you know, like, I don't feel that we can sit in the UK or in New York and say, like, "This is how it, we all have to operate in all the different markets globally," because, like, the problem you have in Serbia is very different to what you have in Bangladesh, very different to what you have in Australia, what you have in Singapore, in the Middle East, or in the US, or in Brazil, right? So, you know, like, different markets need to look for different things, but there's certain things that are very common, right? Like it's, uh, you know, kind of the, um, self-regulation. Like, how do we make sure that we kind of like have a kind of a healthy regulatory body and, and kind of, um, work around kind of self-regulation? How do we build kind of more of a, a sustainable business? Because we know as an industry we have a significant impact on environment. We think about, like, how much impact a campaign has. Um, but also, like, how do we also make sure that we are equitable when it comes to access to talent, and how do we bring kind of a diverse talent pool through the, the industry and kind of make sure that they come into the industry and, and stay? Uh, and that it's also not just for people that can afford to move to London. It's actually making sure that, like, it's there for everyone, right? And it's, um, it's really important, that kind of... And those are common things that we work on, and we have a number of, of global councils that we kind of bring people together from all around the world to talk about different topics, and hopefully then we can kind of learn from the different markets and make sure we implemented it in different ways. Uh, but those are probably some of the, the common things that, that we tend to see from... It's almost evergreen in some ways.

Speaker 1: Yeah. A lot, a lot of people sort of, you know, look at industry bodies and they, they, they sort of think, you know, "Well, they're great at convening," but, you know, are they really kind of, you know, affecting kind of meaningful kind of change? How do you sort of think about sort of making the, the IAA sort of, you know, very much kind of like a counter and useful kind of in practice?

Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, like, we have to do something.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Like, we have to make sure that we, we kind of achieve certain objectives. And I think, you know, like, sometimes, like, we can't do it all ourselves, so we need to then kind of partner with others, and I think one of the benefits of working with the IAA, and why I've been involved in it for so many years, like, we are unique in our position, right? We are the only truly global industry body that represents all sectors of the industry, right? We have brands, we have agencies, we have media and publishers, and we have academia. So we can see ourselves as like the big tent. That's why when, you know, a thing like Ad Net Zero comes up, we are there to support it. You know, we were just at dinner with the, um, Institute for Real Growth yesterday to talk about, like, good growth, like how do we support them in, in their journey. And we also now are working with kind of research partners as well to kind of prove the, the, the societal value of the industry. So, you know, like, um, there is that kind of, um, uh, ef- African proverb, right, where it's like, "If you wanna go fast, go alone. If you're gonna go far, go together." Um, and I feel like we try to convene as many of our partners, our members, and both corporate and individuals, to make sure, like, how do we kind of galvanize them to try to kind of improve the industry for good.

Speaker 1: I love that whole good growth philosophy that you have. Uh, you talk about sort of also, you know, ethic- ethics, and you talk about sort of sustainable marketing. You've kind of talked a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: Sort of what, what, you know, what, what ultimately kind of does that mean to you, um, when you think about that?

Speaker 2: So I think it's, there's kind of many different things there, right? I think, like, you know, I was, um, at an event in Stockholm last year, and, um, a woman from one of the large holding company agencies gave an example where she said, "What, uh, what's the environmental impact of the half a million dollar campaign using mixed media compared to driving a car?" Um, I'm pretty sure I'm right when I say this. You know, so for half a billion, half a million dollars using mixed media across the Nordics had the same environmental impact as driving the car from Stockholm to Cape Town, right? That's something that we don't think about, right? And you kind of, you may- you think about maybe, like, air travel and, and road travel and all these things, right? So, like, so we need to really think... That's why an initiative like Ad Net Zero, and that's why we support them globally, is so important. We're like, "How do we build a sustainable supply chain? How do we make sure, like, when we utilize, like, third-party vendors and measurement tools, like, we, we use the ones that we need to use versus, like, everyone that we can?" Because we know every s- every single, you know, platform will have cloud storage somewhere, so we make sure, like, how we do it. And I remember also a quote from Sir John Hegarty. He spoke at an event that we had in London, where he's like, "If we leverage creativity more, and we do really good ads and create really good content, we don't need as many impressions to get our message across." So that's another thing. So there's a technical thing we need to do, and we also need to make sure that we have the right creativity there. Um, and then also, you know, like, our advertisers are here in this building today and on this, this, kind of, stretch of land. Like, their budgets are fueling, you know, kind of, commercial free speech and all these platforms. How do we make sure that they invest their money in, in, kind of, in a healthy way, in a sustainable way, and also, like, promote also, like, platforms that are kind of ethical and, and kind of want to, kind of, uh, communicate kind of the, the kind of more appropriate things as well. So I think there's, like, there's, there's so many different ways that we as an industry can really make an impact. And, uh, it's, you know, it's upon us all who is here today, and I'm sure, like, you know, there's gonna be a lot of talk about that during the week as well, about how we really need to kind of, you know, roll up our sleeves and kind of just do the work. Like, um, we often talk about, like, doing, doing well by doing good, and I think if you're in that kind of like... If you're in the middle of that Venn diagram, like, you're, you're in a good space.

Speaker 1: And how do, how do you, I suppose, kind of evolve this, you know, beyond something where it's maybe, you know, something that leaders kind of, you know, say kind of on a stage-

Speaker 2: Mm

Speaker 1: ... uh, rather than perhaps act on kind of in practice?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I think probably it's, it's a lot of it is kind of how you kind of put things into, you know, RFPs and how can you, can you-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... how do you vet to different partners? And at some point, like, it probably will be a lot on the brands themselves 'cause they are the ones obviously, like, they're kind of holding the budget, so to speak, in many ways. So how do they make sure, like, when they invest their money, they invest it in, in supply chains and partners that kind of adhere to the, to the frameworks that they want to do, right? And how do you kind of also start to build frameworks that we could use as an industry? Um, I believe when, you know, uh, carbon calculators started coming out a few years ago, you can k- have three different, or three different agencies that come up with three completely different outputs. So how do we build kind of common frameworks that we as an industry can sign up to and say, like, "Actually, this is what we want to do, and here's how we're gonna measure this." And then, and we all kind of start to measure kind of, and what gets measured gets done, right? So if we start to think about, like, what are the various things that, you know, brands require from the media partners and their agencies, and then have that common framework, how do we then m- move that forward?

Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about sort of talent and access and sort of, you know, who gets to stay in the room.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Um, you've been very vocal about sort of the need for, you know, widening access and particularly kind of international kind of talent. You know, uh, but, you know, and from a UK perspective, particularly kind of after Brexit, sort of what's the kind of, what's the kind of position we're at now in terms of, um, access and, and, and, and, you know, um, the, the doors and pathways, you know, for, for the talent of tomorrow?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I think we're in a pretty challenging place, right? Like, you know, if you think about the... As we talked about a bit, like, the, just the growth of AI that are coming into the workplace, right? Is how, what is that impact going to have on the jobs that we see today? Um, you know, we're also seeing, you know, increased economic headwinds, so are companies making the same amount of investments into their talents. So I think there's, there's definitely a, um, a concern to how do we kind of bring the next generation of really skilled people on- into the industry and not lose them to other parts of other industries in that sense. Um, so I think there's a, there's a job to do for us, uh, as a trade organization, and we know we work with academic partners, and we actually had a conversation about it yesterday in our board meeting where we talked about, like, how do we, like, form, like, a global talent council that can start to work on some of these things and actually, like, bring in ideas from all, all parts of the world to see how we can solve this issue. And then also, you know, the jobs that we have today will look different tomorrow, but how do we make sure that we provide training, education, and access to kind of the next generation of, of, uh, kind of leaders that are coming into the industry, but also do it in a, in a fair and equitable way? So it's, um, it's kind of the everyone has the same chance.

Speaker 1: 'Cause you, you, I think you, you, you publi- you helped publish kind of Ad Pays Six, I think, and Deeds Not Words. What did that sort of work show you about kind of where the industry's kind of gaps and blind spots are on talent and leadership?

Speaker 2: I think the Deeds Not Words thing was, like, um, one that probably hit home most because, like, I thought that over the years with a lot of the programs that I've seen in the industry with companies like Wacko and Bloom, that we would have closed that gap in leadership positions in a much faster pace than we had. Um, but that wasn't the case. It was not even, like, a small hockey stick. It was just, like, very, very small, kind of gradual growth. And, uh, Liz Jones, uh, who is one of the co-founders of Conquer, uh, she was part of the, the team at Wacko that I worked with. Um, I remember when we saw the data from the insights team that we worked on at LinkedIn, um- She was like, "Yeah, I'm not surprised." And I was like, I, I obviously knew it wouldn't have been close too much, but I thought we would've made more progress. So it just means that that's another kind of evergreen topic that we just need to make sure that we work on and provide tools, platforms, programs to help, uh, wide, like, help narrow that gap. And then the work we did with #PaySix was also kind of looking at the, the access to diverse talent pools that the UK industry needed. And, um, yeah, again, I think it's, you know, like diverse teams win. That is, that is a must. Um, and you know, like we need to make sure that we kind of, the markets have access to that, the talent pool. Um, and also like how we can then encourage them to build really diverse teams so we have all the people in the room. Um, I believe it was like Unilever who talked about this a lot, were like, "Our office floor needs to look like the society we serve, not the people that we are just most like." So, and I think if you run an agency or you run a production company, or you run a marketing team, or you're in a tech platform like I am in my day job, like we need to make sure that the room that we're sitting in is representative of the people that we serve.

Speaker 1: I love that. That's a great philosophy.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You've, you've, you've had a whole career, I think, really, you know, that's been built around sort of strategic partnerships. I mean, you mentioned Nielsen kind of earlier. Um, you know, and whether that's agency groups, trade bodies, boards, founders, what makes a partnership last? You know, um, you know, what, what are the kinda key kind of, I suppose, sort of like, kinda ingredients to that recipe?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's when it's, it's a mutually beneficial, right? Like, um, it's, um, you need to make sure, like I often look at it also like partnership and networks are probably very similar in that sense, right? And I, I often talk about like, you need to kind of ask what you can do for network versus what the network can do for you. And I think like when you go into partnerships, like there's not a zero-sum game. Like I, I can win and you should lose. It needs to make sure that we, we provide mutual value, mutual growth, mutual benefits to, to kind of all parties that are part of this, this ecosystem. Um, so that's, I think it's kind of the, the, the kind of the most important thing was like if you look at like some of the most successful partnerships that you have, like they kind of, they work together for, for a number of years, right? Then they kind of, they, they have their own kind of o- objectives, they have their own kind of strategies and ambitions, but they are overlapping and, um, and they can also make sure like it's, uh, the values and benefits all parties there. I think that's the really key thing in, you know, sort of partnership. Um, I was talking to my wife about it when, um, we were talking, she's like, "Our daughter's gonna be a really, really good negotiator because she does never back down." So like she's three years old, right? She never backs down. And I was like, "Actually," I'm like, "That's not a good negotiator, actually." I was like, "There needs to be a bit of give and take." Like, you can't just be like, "I do this, and I, I don't care what you say." And I think, you know, like, hopefully she'll, she'll learn to be slightly more flexible as she grows up. Um, but I feel it's the same off with partnerships. Like, you need to make sure, like I want to get what I need to have, but I can kind of do that whilst at the same time making sure the partners I have in the same room leave that room feel like, "Actually, this works. I want to continue to build on this for the years to come."

Speaker 1: And to your point around sort of, you know, ask kind of like what, not what you're getting from the network, but what you're bringing to the network. There's obviously an element of trust in that, and I know you're, you're a big kind of believer in kind of in trust. So tell me more about kind of how you bake trust in the way that you kind of operate.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's, you know, um, our old CEO, Jeff Weiner, so he ran LinkedIn, but he said like, "Trust is built in drops and lost in buckets," right? So like, it's kind of, you need to like, when you kind of build trust with someone, you need to be able to like, it's like you make a promise to someone in that sense, right? And promises needs to be, you know, valuable to the person you're doing it with, it needs to be repeatable, and you need to be able to deliver on that as well. And I think that if you can do those things to start building that trust and like make sure like it, you're consistent and like, you know, like you adhere to kind of those kind of values that you set out initially, that that is where trust is built. But then like you also need to do that in the long term. 'Cause again, like if you have a bucket, if trust is built in drops but then lost in buckets, you know, like one, one false move and you know, like that is it, right? And I think it's, you know, it's how I've tried to kind of lead the organizations I lead and how I kind of tried to act myself because, you know, like you, you're only as strong as your, your own brand in a lot of ways, right? I'm not, like, I don't wanna see myself as a brand, that's such, right? But you think about it sometimes like, like if I make commitment to someone, I, I need to be, make sure I can fulfill it. Um, and if I need to kind of then work with other people to help to do it, that's the case. But like it's kind of being true to your word and making sure like the, kind of the, the trust is there.

Speaker 1: Brand and trust, man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, I think, you know, I, you, you're definitely a brand. I think we're all actually becoming in some way-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... a brand, depending on how, you know, how kind of, you know, kind of big we are. Definitely feels that sort of, there's a link between brand and trust. Clearly that's, you know, a, a, an old adage. But you, I think, definitely have also built your own kind of personal brand. I mean, prior to kind of, you know, current roles, you, you founded and sold a mobile ad business, you know, but then you kind of went on to lead that, you know, kind of after the deal. And I think that speaks to something that I'm really interested to kind of unpack a bit more, which is that, you know, you, you built something, um, but you didn't just sort of then exit. You know, you, you sort of almost kind of basically kind of thought about, you know, it being durable as well as buildable.

Speaker 2: Mm.

Speaker 1: Tell me more about that philosophy.

Speaker 2: No, I think it's, you know, like it was an amazing journey that my, my business partner Chris and I were on, and with our advisor then actually we, we've ended up selling the business to an American software company. And you know, like you also feel like when that happens, you have a responsibility to your team, to your partners, and to your customers to like see this thing through. So, so I spent a year, uh, after the, the deal closed, um, working with, with kind of in a global sales role and, and kind of building out the team and everything else. And you know, after that I kind of felt I was ready to move on to something else, and the opportunity with LinkedIn came up and it was, you know, I've been a power user of LinkedIn since day one when I signed up in 2005. So- You know, I kind of felt it was just such an amazing opportunity to join. Um, but I'm also very pleased that one of my colleagues from that time, uh, has now actually joined LinkedIn, and I'm seeing her later on this afternoon. So, uh, it's nice to come a bit full circle there as well.

Speaker 1: I mean, that's, that's really great to kind of hear the full circle side of it. And, you know, you- I know that you kind of advise kind of early-stage tech businesses. Where, where do you kind of find that sort of founders in particularly advertising, marketing, kind of, you know, most, most often kind of get the commercial side wrong?

Speaker 2: I guess it's when you think about too much short term, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, uh, you know, like, we have to always think about, like, how do you build long-term sustainable value for your business? And, like, I think when you're in a startup world, it could be easy to cut corners or easy to kind of try to maximize the profit in this one particular project. But actually, what's really important is how do you think about long term, and maybe even saying no to a deal if it's not right for you, because actually you want to do something that is more important for, for that particular brand. So I think it's, it's having that long-term perspective versus, like, trying to get short-term gains.

Speaker 1: Let's just kind of close on IAA for a bit. You know, you, you were building IAA in the UK, and then you took on the kind of global role. I guess, you know, kind of like when we kind of fast-forward, you know, kind of what, what does kind of the future look like for the IAA?

Speaker 2: I think it's, it's an incredibly exciting time. We have a new global, uh, managing director in Kirsty Giordani. We- we've shifted kind of the, the headquarters from New York to London. We've expanded into a lot of new markets. Just in the last 12 months, we've opened up in, in Qatar, in, in, uh, Singapore, in Saudi Arabia, in Brazil. We have exciting expansion plans in other markets as well. So, you know, I think, uh, with this new leadership team that we have and the new kind of chapters and growth we're having in those, as well as our established markets, uh, we don't want to just look at new markets. It's actually how do we look at all kind of established markets. Like, uh, in Lebanon, we've been around for 64 years, I believe. Um, and you know, how do we also make sure, like, we kind of provide kind of value to them? But I think, you know, the industry now is facing so many different, uh, challenges and pressures, and there's probably never been a better time to have a kind of a trusted voice that provides, like, global perspectives to global marketers and mar- marketing professionals than, than now. Um, so I think our, our job is definitely gonna be more and more important than, you know... That's what gets you out of bed in the morning.

Speaker 1: Fredrik, it's been a real pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me as well. Really appreciate it.