The Single Truth

Speaker 1: Welcome to The Business Marketing. My name's John Horsley, I'm the host of the show today. We're recording live at Cannes Lions. Uh, we're sat in the Empower Cafe. I have the absolute pleasure of being joined by John Morris, who is Chief Executive Officer of Design Bridge and Partners. Hey, John, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: Hey, John. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here in the sunshine and, and the extreme heat.

Speaker 1: It is blazing today.

Speaker 2: It's very hot, but we're both managing. Managing as much- as best as we can.

Speaker 1: Absolutely. Um, I always like to ask this question, or start asking it recently. What, in the first instra- instance, so your younger self, attracted you into the world of marketing, advertising, design, media, you know, et cetera? What was it that grabbed your attention and you thought, "Yeah, that looks like a piece of myself."

Speaker 2: I tell you what, there's a very, very simple one for me. The turning point I remember very clearly. I don't know if you remember in the, in the '80s and '90s, the Audi advertising campaign, Vorsprung durch Technik, and the famous commercial where basically there's a, a, a yuppie who was driving a BMW, and basically it was all that, the lifestyle he lived, and the choices he's made, and it was all a bit flash. And then the guy at the end, actually the cooler guy, jumps into the Audi. I remember watching that thinking, "That's really clever." And actually then trying to explain it to my friends, and I go, "I understood it. I understood the strategy, I understood what they were trying to do." And at that point, I thought, "You know what? I love creativity and I can see what it does for business. That, I think, is the right industry for me."

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, that was one of the genius ads of, of that moment in time. And, and actually captured that moment in time perfectly as well, didn't it?

Speaker 2: It was... Uh, yeah. And so for me, that was the turning point. Interestingly enough, at the plane out here, I did actually see, uh, Sir John Hegarty as he is now, and I did actually say, "Well done."

Speaker 1: Yeah. And what that did is instill brand, brand in your head. You know, people would walk around and use that term. Um, yeah, and use, use the terminology.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, yeah. So that pulled me in, uh, pulled me into the world of creativity and, and marketing. And then since then, I've been on a journey of, of, um, being in initially advertising and then actually seeing how the whole world of marketing, uh, and creativity was changing. And then I switched into the world of brand and design, which is where I am today at Design Bridge and Partners. You know, Design Bridge and Partners... Well, we started as Design Bridge 40 years ago. It's our 40th year this year. Very proud of that. I've been very fortunate. I've been there for 22 of those years. We've evolved or changed over those years, you know, from the way design is beyond just visual codes to structural codes, to building global brands.

Uh, and frankly, perhaps a slightly under-invested area being brand. Uh, and there's a groundswell at this point in time that, that we can see that's visible, that is part of a lot of the conversations here in, in Cannes this week, um, towards proper investment in brand and longer term, uh, business and brand building.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Um, from your point of view, uh, what are your clients saying? And, and the... You know, they're obviously coming to you with ideas, and thinking, and, and questions.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a really good topic and, and yeah, we've seen that trend and we've seen that trend changing very much. So the groundswell shifting back. Look, performance marketing drives the short-term and actually... But if you're gonna build brands, which in turn builds businesses, you need to think long-term. That is where the role of brand and design really plays. And you've probably seen, you know, this week, phenomenal talks, uh, uh, and talks, debates, disagreements, and agreements between Byron Sharp and Mark Ritson about actually what it means to build long-term brands, you know. Brands have to have a meaning behind them and then have distinctive brand assets that they can utilize to get noticed. I do think you have- brands have to tell stories. Uh, and so there's a combination factor of kind of, for me, of meaning and distinctive brand assets and telling stories that connect people with creators and with influencers. But I think that's all about long-term brand building. I always use, I use a phrase, I talk about timeless and timely, and that's the way I think about brands, which drives business growth. You need to have the elements of a brand which are timeless, which are gonna be, okay, kept relevant, but, and then evolve, but fundamentally are true to the brand and that business. And then it's about the timely application, and I've seen more and more of those conversations with the clients. As you see the fragmentation of media and the fragmentation of channels and, as I've just mentioned, the growth of c- creators, the growth of influencers, brands and businesses though still need to create some form of control. Um, and I think that's, that's been the change, that's been the change away from that performance marketing. Yes, we still need to drive results and, and I don't mean that, you know, it's not about actually the commercial side of it. In fact, actually brand and design is incredibly important for me for the growth side of it. Um, you need to actually prove through, through data and commercial arguments about the role brand and design plays. You know, to have... We're very fortunate, um, Design Bridge and Partners is now part of WPP and WPP Brand and Design, and, and I've got access to a broader community now, which means I've got access to, uh, BAV, brand asset valuator, which tells me about the, how brands have shifted in terms of when you set, put in certain measures and certain, against certain metrics. We've also got access to brand, uh, brand finance, which tells us about the commercial side of how brands can grow. So armed with data and a strong commercial argument, it can help us justify that longterm brand-building approach.

Speaker 1: Mm, mm. Yeah, I mean, when you look at performance marketing, it's almost insane really if you're just focusing on the 5%. And frankly, I don't believe that 5% of people are in market at that point in time anyway. I believe it's slightly less. Uh, and then the collective, the 95% who are your future customer, uh, and also the danger of, uh, certainly within B2B, uh, over-messaging or spamming, uh, uh, you know, at, at worst, um, and then alienating that 95% of, of potential future buyers.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think you've, you're absolutely, uh, correct with that one. You know, I always think about what- whatever, you know, whatever the audience is, a B2B audience, a B2C audi- but the B2... You know, in the B2B space, whatever space, you've gotta think about the people. You've gotta think about the consumer or the customer or the person, and actually the brand and the business needs to think about those individuals and what, how to service those, their needs rather than just get that quick gain. Because as you say, the lo- you've gotta think about the longterm loyalty and build your brand up and your business up and build that loyalty with them, and that's actually means you need to have trust, and trust is a two-way street between the brand and, and the individual, the customer or, or the consumer, and from that you get the respect. And for me, that's then drives growth and sales.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, trust is hard to build and easy to lose.

Speaker 2: 100%. I mean, we use that phrase all the time. I'm sure you do as well.

Speaker 1: Exactly. Uh, my mother taught me well, I think.

Speaker 1: Um, the, the other piece of thing that's, that's driving, you know, this, this ground swell or, or trend is the proliferation of AI answer engines, um, and the, the recognition that, uh, many of the, the companies out there are perhaps not gonna rank for the citations that they need. They need to be rediscovered. That is gonna take them quite some time. Uh, it means investment in content, and it, it means, again, visiting the art of storytelling, which is a brand activity.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's been, it's been topics at Cannes this year, well, big topic last year, which is all about actually the role of AI. This year has been actually the combination of humanity and AI-

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah

Speaker 2: ... and how that all works together. I'm sure you've seen it in all-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... the different conversations. But back to the point you're making, it is, uh, or the question, um, fundamentally, y- you know, a brand, to tell that story a brand has to have a truth, a meaning, and actually it becomes even more important in the world of LLMs. Um, I don't know if you've seen this week, uh, the, the Volvo, uh, have won a few Cannes Lions, and actually it's a great piece of work. And Volvo have now consistently gone back to their message about safety. Now, if they've got a single-minded message that's, uh, constantly on repeat through everything it does, an LLM would be easy to pick that up. And so basically having that story, keeping true to that story, constantly replaying that story means then you get a consistency, and it means you get found. And I think that relates to any type of brand or any type of business. So I think maybe rather than generating multiple content, almost take a step back, think about what is the true meaning that you have, the truth behind your business, and then think a way, think of the way you can consistently replay that story. I then, you know, for me it's about using design, but when I talk about design, just so we're clear, you know, it's not just visual. I, I talk about design in a, in a much broader landscape. So I used the phrase earlier, sorry if I just dropped in, talked about distinctive brand assets. You know, for me, a brand is both visual, it's, uh, aural and oral. So it's basically, there is, you know, defining the, the language it uses, the sound it may use, the ritual it may have, even down to the haptic, the feel it may have. These are all the codified elements for a brand. So if you got your truth and you've got that, let's call it a set of ingredients you can play with, then you can be consistent. Then you can actually a- come up and appear far more regularly, far more consistently, and f- be easier to find through an LLM, and I think that's ev- ever so more important. I think that's what's gonna gain more traction in the next few years, I, I think anyway.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I, I believe that 100%. Uh, in a B2B context, people will use LLMs to shortlist. Well, if your content's not there, uh, you're not getting cited and you're not getting shortlisted. But if brands worked effectively, you're already on the shortlist before using the LLM.

Speaker 2: Well, it, yeah, it's, I had the same discussion actually with someone else this morning about actually, um, if you've built a good brand, you've already cut through, and actually that's the big thing, it's like i- it- it's the sacrifice moment in the decision-making that, that all businesses go through about actually what is the true story they wanna tell about themselves.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And it is about a sacrifice, and it's in the boardroom those, you know, you've gotta have the bravery. Everyone talks about creative bravery. I think it's actually the businesses are the brave decision-makers about actually, "If we go out there with 30 messages, we're gonna miss our point." We've gotta be confident about who we are, what we are, how we tell our story, consistently then deliver that, and that's when the business cuts through. So I think that is a brave business decision in a boardroom by business leaders in, in B2B.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Are you also noticing a change on the client side in terms of job title, but responsibility is probably a better way of describing it? So I'm coming across more people who have brand and marketing within their job title or- ... communications and marketing, for instance, linked in their title, whereas in the past they would normally be separated.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I, um, I usually... I think that's a great question. Let- let turn it around. When I've been chatting to people this week, I've been asking, "Okay, so what do you do?" Because of these multifaceted titles that are coming up, so you kind of go, "I'm generally going, going... Can you just explain to me exactly what it is?" And- and then someone... And I've been reading up about it, I'm sure you have, which was, you know, the trend of a few years, which s- was the, we all need to be T-shaped, deep-rooted expertise.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 2: And now everything's now M-shaped, and I think that's true on the client side now, where basically they need to understand the role brand plays, the role brand plays in marketing, the role brand plays in then commercial performance, the role brand plays then in how you need to bring technology and data into it. So there's far more of that M-shaped capability, which means titles. It still comes down to the A is, end of the day, look, all of our roles are to build businesses. You know, I t- I use the phraseology brand and design, but I'll pull that back, is my job is to help business grow. I just use the tools I've got, which is in the realm of brand and design and that creativity, to help those businesses grow. And I think maybe we'll have a simplification in a few years' time where we get rid of all the multiple nomenclatures-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... and just simplify everything back to-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... growers and business. I don't know.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I'm also wondering if the- the title chief marketing officer is obsolete now, um, and the expectation of board, frankly. So, you know, looking at marketers... Or let- let's actually just scrap the thinking about marketer. Um, you know, the CFO might have a particular opinion, the CEO might have a particular opinion, other board members might have a other opinion as well in terms of what they're looking for. The CFO has taken quite a lot of, uh, well, quite a lot more ground off of the- the marketer, as it were. Um, you know, clearly, and- and hey, look, we've been going through some tough times as well, so, you know, it makes sense. But that's also linked to the performance marketing aspect, 'cause it's an easy one for a CFO to go, "Oh, okay, we put money into the machine, we got some money out." Um, I was speaking to somebody earlier in the week, and they, again, to this- this idea of titles, saying, "Well, actually, what they're kind of describing is a unicorn," you know? It- it doesn't exist. Uh, a chief marketing strategy communications technology and xxx and x officer, which doesn't-

Speaker 1: ... you know, exist in- in one human being that's out there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gonna be-

Speaker 1: You know, they're describing an army of people or- or, you know, a number of functions, um, or, uh, expert service providers.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and we're gonna end up those long titles and long CVs, aren't we, at some point? I mean, it does have to simplify, it really-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... do, do. And I- I think actually, I- is the chief marketing officer title and role obsolete? Potentially. I work with a lot of, um, CPG consumer businesses, and we've seen over the last few years that they've shift... Well, firstly they started adding, so it was the chief marketing and digital officer.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 2: Then really, like, come on. You can't use this word digital. Everything is-

Speaker 1: I think you just scrap the word digital now. It's-

Speaker 2: 100%

Speaker 1: ... it's everywhere, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: That is the role. So what- what then shifted, actually, is the chief growth officers, or I've seen actually chief customer officer. That is then more about then the relevancy that the- the function plays in driving the business growth, which- which I think is a far more intelligent way of thinking about it, because it is then about actually the responsibility you have in that role. If I then look in from an agency perspective, I think it frames rather than... You go into a conversation, we're talking about brand and design and making things wonderful that's gonna drive emotion and connect people, but it's a service of need of growing the business, and that is the fundamental.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Uh, so actually, maybe you're onto something here. Maybe we should actually simplify the titles, make it absolutely really... It's- it's back to the T-shirt test.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah? Get everyone to show... What do you do? If you can put it on the front of the T-shirt, it's all very clear. Well, we should have that next year in Cannes.

Speaker 1: Well, at Yahoo last night, I mean, that was an exceptional event. Uh, there's a lady who's previously been on the show. She has a very long, very, very long job title, um, but is extremely descriptive for what she does. Uh, and, you know, she messaged me and said, "Oh, smart, you getting there earlier. Uh, now you see what I do." And I said, "Your title should just be Bringer of Joy."

Speaker 2: But you know what? That's a pretty good one for that business.

Speaker 1: Exactly. That's-

Speaker 2: That is the truth

Speaker 1: ... and the experience that she created was-

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 1: ... incredible, and she is a master at creating fantastic brand experiences.

Speaker 2: Did you tell her that? I think you should, like, you- you should go and get the T-shirt printed and go and find her and you let... I think that'd be great.

Speaker 1: Um, I- I was thinking about John Rudaski as well, who's been on the show recently. Um, and yeah, I mean, he's, you know, he's chief market- well, he's chief brand marketing officer at obviously EY now. Uh, and I- I just love the way that he speaks, the visual language that he uses when he speaks, uh, the calmness within his voice. And one of his quotes was, um, that, "Brand is the engine of the world," and I thought that was fantastic.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Uh, and it's easy to understand. You know, without brand, you have nothing else. Of course it's the engine.

Speaker 2: I'm- I'm sitting here with a quick pause of being quite jealous of that, and I'm like-

Speaker 2: ... I think actually, I- I'll say, can I steal with pride for that moving forward? Because I think, yeah, engine of growth, I'd lo- love it, and yeah. Eloquent talker, confident talker. Uh, I've seen him on stage as well. Brilliant.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And then I think, yeah, it is, that's what it does, and I think that brings, you know, it- it- it- it colors in what the role is.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I think that's h- very important, is just get... You know, I was talk- ... taught very early on that actually is, um, keep it simple. You know, for building businesses, it's all about, you know, make sure you got a fantastic product that people want, make sure you've got-

Speaker 1: Yes

Speaker 2: ... great relationships-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... with your customers-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... and then build a culture that people want to work in.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And so I think the way John's just described there simplifies things for me, and I love that.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I really do.

Speaker 1: I was taught, like, uh, it was KISS, keep it simple, stupid.

Speaker 2: Yeah. 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is, that is, yeah.

Speaker 1: Easy for people to understand-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... and, and better connect with. Um-

Speaker 2: And it hasn't changed. That's how businesses are successful. That's how people are successful.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And things that I hadn't thought about in terms of, you know, what I was taught in the past as well, and I'd frankly forgotten about. But, yeah, things like the organizing idea.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I, I'd, I'd forgotten about that.

Speaker 2: Yeah. But it's, in a big-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... but, but you probably re, you know-

Speaker 1: It's so much more relevant now, but I've actually probably been putting it into practice anyway subconsciously.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I, I was taught recently, and I've been trying to put this into practice, which especially with, you know, we're all talking about technology, we're all talking about AI, we're all talking about impact, and actually what you've just, you know, personified there for me is actually we're in this phase of learn or relearn and learn again. And actually it's some... It's like the, um, intuitive nature of things we've sort of known in the past that we're learning again or we're relearning again, and we're bringing that back into our strengths. It's there, it's in our memory banks and our structures, and it's also probably down to basic human instinct if you are in this industry. I think it is industry which is driven by people, people who have human skills. I think if you're, especially in the wor- in, in our industry now, high EQ matters, and so you've probably, as you say, pulled out from the memory banks of something you learnt many years ago and then can pull back on that and go, "That's still relevant."

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were gonna print a, uh... Well, we did print it, but it wasn't printed well enough for me to wanna put it up. Uh, a, you know-

Speaker 2: Show us. We could've done it

Speaker 1: ... a flag, um, so that people could find us easily in the, um, depths, uh, secret garden. But, uh, you know, also gave us a level, would've given us a level of brand ability, but I'm not gonna put up something that's, you know, imperfect. And we were like, okay, so, you know, what's our, what's our just do it? You know?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Um, and as close as we got was we believe it's conversations that matter.

Speaker 2: I like that. Conversations that matter.

Speaker 1: Although we feel that we can improve it, so perhaps that's a future discussion with yourself.

Speaker 2: I, I would love to play around with that with you.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: 'Cause I think I'd love to get deeper into it, because I think, uh, I think it's a nice first, but I think there's probably a stronger meaning behind it. I mean, as we sit here having a chat-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... I can see there's actually... Yeah, meaning. Meaning should be there for everything. I've talked about it with brands and businesses, and that's what they need. But I think... And the conversation obviously is what you do, but actually is there a next level?

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: 'Cause I think maybe you're, you're actually trying to get more into the soulful element that drives people and drives their businesses and their philosophy and thinking. I think there's-

Speaker 1: Exactly

Speaker 2: ... I think there's another layer. I think we could-

Speaker 1: And we know, we know it's not right, though, but it was the starting point.

Speaker 2: But I like the idea of being your signifier of, "We're here."

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Uh-

Speaker 1: And you can't, you can't quite taste it at this point in time.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So when clients come to you, and you know, uh, they approach you, and, and, you know, on board, as it were, uh, what does that process look like? How do you help them, uh, how do you help them think correctly, perhaps, you know, simplify propositions, get to that place where you can start developing brand for them?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the, um, I think the first thing is, is a lot of what become with clients, the conversations I have, they always come with some form of brief, and, and they've identified a problem, and they've given us the brief, and they want a solution to this brief. And sometimes it's, it's good, it's strong, but that's a starting point. So we're actually... The, for me, the starting point is, okay, can we just take two steps back and go, "Actually, what truly is your problem you're trying to solve for your business?" Don't, don't... Not, not, not just kind of what you want from us in a brand and design perspective, whether it's an identity system. What is the business problem? And therefore, can we just go back to that so we can have a better understanding of that? And then maybe, actually, there's a different approach and solution we can get to. Um, I... Look, we, we, we have a... I like to keep, as we talked about earlier, things quite simple. I do believe that brands and businesses, we look for, you know, uh, a stand for message and then, and then work out a way of constructing an identity system that creates stand out. But beyond that, I don't wanna get too formulaic. I want to understand the problems rather than just drive a process that drives an executional solution, 'cause I do think that every brand and every business has got slightly different kind of challenge. Um, so I think that, yeah, my, my approach with a client is a deeper-rooted understanding. I usually use the phrase, "Let's dig deeper." Let's deep dig, dig deeper to understand more so we can then f- work on and co-create the brief to, to move forward. Um, and it may be that it's still the right way forward, but I think it's, it's getting, you know, as I touched on earlier about getting to, digging deeper on, you know, the phrase you're thinking about to surmise what you do. I wanna get to the soul of a business.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's not, it's not there. It's too descriptive.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a, it's as simple as that. Um-

Speaker 2: Yeah. But sometimes when the client comes with that kind of brief-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... we just go, "I can see where this is gonna go."

Speaker 1: Well, it's bor- you know, it's boring. It's like list of features and functions or something like that.

Speaker 2: Y- um, yeah. I've-

Speaker 1: Specifications and, and whatever.

Speaker 1: Which, again, I mean, you see it all the time.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you do. And, and I think that the, uh- Maybe sometimes the board, the boardroom's dictated to the marketing team that, "This is the challenge. You now go as a marketing team to fix this challenge." And as you say, it, it feels like a dictated path that reaches a solution, and sometimes that solution actually may not be the right way or, or solving the right problem. So I think uncovering the problem and thinking maybe differently, it does require, I touched on it earlier, sorry to repeat myself, bravery in the boardroom, 'cause I think that's where the bravery is. It starts from there rather than just being the designer or the creative at the far end saying, "Oh, this is the most amazing cut-through thing." It's like, no, no, no, no. It starts a bit further up the food chain in the conversation.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I totally believe that. I b- I believe that the CEO should be the chief story officer.

Speaker 2: Ooh. Ooh, I like that thinking.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Otherwise, you know, how are you gonna communicate to the business? How are you gonna bring everyone on the journey, on the mission? How is everybody gonna be clear and properly briefed in, um, and really understand the DNA of the company?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I think there's lots of companies out there where people who are the employees don't really fully understand the pur- full purpose and proposition of the business.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'll take it back from a, from a very personal kind of perspective on that one, and I can put... I love, I love your thinking, I love the direction of travel. You know, we, we... as I mentioned before, and I'm not trying to... It's the journey of the business, 40 years growing a business, then becoming part of WPP. And then we were Design Bridge, then we became Design Bridge and Partners as I merged with another business. And about 12 months into that merger, suddenly realized, what's our story? And then had to go back to the basics of, why do we do what we do, and then rep- communicate and just repeat that message to everyone to build then the culture. So therefore, then everyone... You know, it's, it's the two-way street of the... It's exactly what you've just said, is for me, I, I lo- we, uh, me, we used to ha- I use a phrase, we... me, we. And I think that belongs to companies. You know, what do we as a business need to give to you as, as our, you know, valued employee, our brand ambassador, and what do you to us then need to bring us back?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I think that's the way, as you say, the CEO, I'm the CEO of a, you know, a brand design agency, but a CEO of a large business needs to think in exactly the same way.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And that therefore then creates your team are the most powerful people in the world to go out in the world to drive your business growth.

Speaker 1: I find American companies are, are better at, at doing it normally, um, than UK. And it, I think it becomes part of their mantra. You know, a lot of American companies have mantras. Um, and actually, I like the idea of manifestos as well. American companies seem to create a manifesto, they'll do it on day one.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Uh, they'll revisit it perhaps, you know, every year or couple of years. Uh, and they communicate it internally and also externally. Whereas I don't believe that, you know, British businesses or founders or whatever even, even thinking that way.

Speaker 2: Well, yeah. I, I'm very fortunate, and I, I, I agree with what you're saying, 'cause I'm very fortunate. I've grow- I've traveled a lot and worked with lots of international businesses in the US or APAC and then, and, uh, I sort of agree. I think talking as two Brits sitting together, we can get a little bit cynical, and that cynical side can slip into the business. And, and I've seen, yes, different companies and different cultures are far more expressive and excited, and actually, that generates energy.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And com- you build companies on energy.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I, uh, but I have also worked then therefore with a lot of businesses and I say, on your brand, we've got to be able to get it down to a page. We've got to be able to distill down what is that single-minded truth around your business, the meaning of it. And therefore, you've talked the words manifesto, but actually, and we've done manifestos, and I love that. That single page tells the story, and if everybody can get that, that's the j- that, your, the CEO's done an amazing job. Uh, 'cause it's when it's get complicated, then you start seeing, you know, dissatisfaction in businesses or, or just like the business can dissipate, because there's a lack of understanding the meaning behind it. So yeah, single page strategy.

Speaker 1: Are there areas that you need to educate your clients around so that they can communicate effectively internally a- and gain buy-in?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, so, so I think, I think the big thing is, to go back to something I said earlier very quickly, but, you know, I'm an advocate and a champion of brand design. I mean, the n- the clue's in the name of the business. Um, but to help our clients, we can't just be about the aesthetic of design or the storytelling of brand. We've got to link it to the data and the commercial effect in the story. S- so when I talk about brand performance and data which shows how brand, um, increases saliency and then drives sales, and that we can prove with design that actually design, uh, brands that are designed and have more, have emotional correctin- c- uh, emotional connection that drive deeper meaning, uh, I think it's times four in terms of sales. So what we have to do is help our clients out, because the marketing team, the brand teams have to go into a boardroom, and those boardrooms are tough, tough environments. And as agencies, you might... We so- you sometimes forget that, 'cause you think you're servicing your client. Actually, no. For me, you're servicing the brand or the business a- and that's the role and responsibility you play. So it's almost you work in partnership with the client- With your, your marketing and branding client to help them build a strong business case and a business argument to win in the boardroom, and I'm seeing more and more in that in the last few years.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, there's often a quite a hard case to put a- across as it's fairly intangible. There is a lot of data there, though. Um, Cannes Lions is fantastic as it's extremely... Well, this is what it's about, right? It's extremely supportive for that. I'm just thinking back to, mm, I want to say around about 2014, thereabouts, uh, I had a meeting with, uh, Philip Thomas, uh, who is obviously Mr. Cannes, um, and the l- you know, one of the legends behind this, this fantastic event, and he was, he was taking me through a whole load of data that showed how creative businesses within pretty much every category you could think of outperformed the rest of their competition significantly.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and that, when was that, 2014 you just said?

Speaker 1: 2014.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're still trying to have... I've just repeated probably the same story back to you that it's been there. A- a- and as you say, it's tough. We've got to consistently, consistently, consistently repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat the same thing.

Speaker 1: And also brand value being directly related to perform- you know, performance to a certain extent on the, on the markets. Um, but, you know, valuation. You know, that's, you know, a big part of the value of a company is, is brand value as well.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, I think it's tougher depending on what sector you're in.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So I-

Speaker 1: That's why I'm not sure it applies to every sector.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I was literally having-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... this, almost this conversation, a bit of a debate because I was talking about my, what I believe-

Speaker 1: Mm

Speaker 2: ... uh, one of my clients in, in the banking sector, let's just say. I went-

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And it's really tough for those guys 'cause they really have to, you know, prove the commercial argument behind what they're doing because, and he was saying to me, you know, maybe in the past, not so much now, but the, the nickma- the nickname was the color-in guy.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Uh, 'cause it's really hard in that sector to, to prove the value and the commercial drive.

Speaker 1: I know, it's amazing that that attitude, or that term still exists.

Speaker 1: You know, "Give it to the coloring-in department." Um-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... and actually I, I will, uh, not necessarily bad marketers, but marketers who don't present the case well enough within a business, uh, are deemed, "Oh, well, they'd, they're the promotions department."

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, which is, you know, brilliant. You've just demoted yourself. You demoted yourself to the promotions department.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, back to your, you know, performance marketing earlier, that's a, a rocky road to nowhere 'cause if you're just the promotions department, you know, good luck. You're gonna be undercutting yourself before you know it, and you've just... Yeah.

Speaker 1: Mm. What would, what advice would you offer to, uh, a, a CMO, um, who's looking to, yeah, in- invest more in brand at this point in time and, and build a case?

Speaker 2: Uh, I'd... My advice would be examine your brand and making sure that you've done the due diligence of understanding, back to what I said earlier, the problem you face as a business rather than just actually the potential of what you want to make the brand's purpose about or the story about. Make sure it's linked to exactly the problem or the challenge you've got, and I'd also say make sure that your brand links to a truth about your business. There's no point making something up that has no connection to the product or service that you're offering because it's superficial and, and whatever your sector you're in, if it's B2B, you'll get caught out.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So my first thing is make that a- and then build a good relationship with the CFO because build the commercial understanding of the business, and be seen to build a commercial understanding of the business because I bet you actually... I bet the, that CMO would actually quite enjoy it as well, and the CFO would enjoy it, and actually then you've got a strong buddy-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... and how to build your business for the future.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And I would say as part of that, equip yourself with the language, uh, of the board, uh, the commercial language, uh, and the, the, the language and terminology that a, a CFO would use.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, yeah. I, uh, yeah, absolutely agree. I've a- I'm, I'm sure you have been through that learning curve myself of actually go, sitting down and making sure that I absolutely understand every bit of element of what a P&L is made up of.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 2: Uh, and so, and what-

Speaker 1: That comes from running a business, but yeah.

Speaker 2: It does come and-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... back to your point-

Speaker 1: And wearing many hats, yes.

Speaker 2: Yeah, many hats, and back to you said earlier actually when we were an independent business, so, you know, liquidity ratios, you know. It's the simple stuff actually of actually-

Speaker 1: Yeah, of course

Speaker 2: ... make sure we got enough money coming in, we got enough money in the bank, and we can actually sell our products and services and wares and-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... look after our clients.

Speaker 1: Um, changing topic slightly, um, I'm thinking about inspiration. I don't believe that you can go and find inspiration. Actually, I think that inspiration finds you. Um, but you probably need to go through a process of inputs, et cetera, um, and then you have that, you know, that moment when you relax and it's like, wow, uh, and it, you know, and it, it just flows, right? Um, do you have a sort of like a go-to place, resource, methodology to help you, um, gain or to help inspiration come find you?

Speaker 2: Um, yeah. Talking to as many people as possible, gathering as many thoughts as possible. Um, listening, truly listening, especially early on is... I think for me it's to listen and understand as much as I can, and then process that. Process that in, in my, kind of my own brain and, and then it's kind of the, the- Not to be Alan Partridge, but the Alan Partridge a-ha moment comes, comes-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... in a bizarre way, and it's actually back to my learn and relearn talking earlier. You may have intuitively thought about the inspiration point you have, but actually by listening to lots of people, you've absorbed it, and actually you play it back in your own mind, and then you gather it into a singular thought. I don't know if it... That's, that's how my brain works anyway.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: That's probably just explained a little bit of a process of thought.

Speaker 1: No. Do you know what? We're, we're peas in a pod on this one.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Quite literally on a, on a podcast.

Speaker 2: Well, you see, because chatting and talking on a podcast, so.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, and I was saying this to Justin, actually. So this week we're ha- I'm gonna say having conversations. I hate the term interview. I've explained, you know, I- I'm, I'm not journalist. Um, you know, I'm not looking at press angles. Um, and I, I was saying to him, "Wow, you know, we've, we're doing best part of, of 50 conversations this week-

Speaker 2: Wow

Speaker 1: ... if not more, yeah, between us." And I said to him, "That input is tremendous." Uh, and I know what's gonna happen. I'm gonna have that in the shower moment, and, you know, ideas are gonna come flooding or, you know, when I sit down, and I'll, I'll sit down tomorrow anyway and I'll, I'll start writing up notes and, and so on. Uh, and I'll probably leave it a few days and start revisiting things. And then I might start thinking about some problems that I'm stuck on as well at this point in time. Uh, and I know what'll happen is, I'll become unstuck through the, the gift of having conversations with people like yourselves and others. Um, I also, you know, people saying, "Oh, you know, why do you do this? What do you get out of it?" Um, I see myself as a tourist, so, you know, I'm touring people. I'm touring the ways that they think, not necessarily the way that I think, their points of views, their ideas, their processes. Um, I, you know, and I gain from each and every one of those conversations.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So basically what I need to do is listen through every single of your 50 different conversations and get the inspiration from that actually.

Speaker 2: That's a shameless plug for everyone, basically. We're all gonna listen to the whole lot, but, but back to... I love your, your, your tourist bit. I th- I guess it's you're the tourist guiding through, or maybe the guide, uh, and then helping... You're the guide that helps solve the problems.

Speaker 1: Mm.

Speaker 2: But actually 'cause the solutions are already out there.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: But we just gotta navigate through the maze or the mess.

Speaker 1: Well, the business is messy, isn't it, at the end of the day?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Um, and I think as soon as people realize that, and I think, you know, I think people who are senior realize there's, there's no such thing as a clean business. Of course, all businesses are messy, and they get messy at, at different stages of growth as well. But it, you know, it's a case of being able to find solutions, understand what those growing pains are and, you know, and how to progress.

Speaker 2: Um, and back to your point earlier, which reminded me again, the KISS, keep it simple.

Speaker 1: There we go.

Speaker 2: You know, that's what we need to do.

Speaker 1: Um, one way I always like to, to wrap up is, uh, you know, a, a pearl of wisdom or a, a, a piece of advice, for instance, that you might offer up to a, a younger individual who's either perhaps at the start of their career or perhaps they've just graduated, uh, looking at the world of, um, marketing, media, advertising, could be tech, but, uh, you know, looking at your world, what would you, you know, what would you suggest to them in, in terms of if they had an interest, uh, you know, in joining the industry as it were?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I, I, I, I've got three bits of advice. Um, one is, um, don't seek perfection. Yeah. Uh, c- 'cause I've been down that rocky road myself for thinking I need to solve perfectly every single problem or challenge I was facing, and actually realized the 80/20 rule does apply, and it's better to get it out there than not do anything at all. Um, second thing is, as we all know, when we sit back in our armchairs, uh, it's a marathon, not a sprint. And actually build all those learnings, all those setbacks, just absorb it 'cause it's, as I said, setbacks are just a learning moment, and you'll build and grow over time. And the last point I would say is smile. 'Cause if I travel back now for 10 years, I would say, "John, just smile a little bit more and have a bit of fun through everything."

Speaker 1: Yeah. Brilliant words of advice. Thoroughly enjoyable conversation. Thank you so much for your time, and, uh, I hope you've had a wonderful time here at Cannes.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Uh, and, hey, enjoy the last day tomorrow.

Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I'll enjoy. I might have a glass of rosé now, but I enjoyed the conversation. It really was just a nice conversation to have.

Speaker 1: Thank you so much.