The Trusted Guide

Speaker 1: Welcome to Business Marketing. My name's John Horsley. I'm the host of the show today. We're at Cannes Lions recording live. Uh, it's fantastic to have Matt Sanchez, who is Chief Operating Officer of Yahoo.

Speaker 2: Thanks so-

Speaker 1: Welcome

Speaker 2: ... thanks so much for having me, John. I'm really excited to be here.

Speaker 1: Um, Matt, it would be really good to understand what attracted you to the world of marketing, media, advertising. What was that, you know, that, that moment that drew you in?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, for, for me personally, uh, I actually got started, uh, trying to solve the problem of helping nonprofits build PSAs and reach, you know, reach their audience on television, uh, communicating, uh, communicating what, you know, ultimately were really important messages, and tapping into the, the, the incredible explosion of independent filmmakers that had new digital tools at, at, at their fingertips to, to make amazing content. Uh, and you know, that led me to democratizing video publishing in, in, in a web context, and then trying to solve the, the monetization problem for short-form video. Uh, and one thing led to another and, and here we are.

Speaker 1: Cool. Um, with Yahoo, I mean, there's a tremendous amount of legacy there. You're a 31-year-old business. You've talked about putting a, a fresh lens on the, on the company.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: What does that actually mean in plain business terms now?

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, you know, we, we were the, uh, original guide. You know, there were folks at Yahoo scouring the internet and making sense of and organizing all the websites that people might be interested in in given categories. Uh, and if, if anything, that problem is just more complex today. It's, uh, you know, there's, there's a lot of really incredible content out there, but you have to sort through a, a, a ton of chaff to get to those, those real nuggets. And, and so we see our role and we think there's a huge opportunity in being that trusted guide wherever your, your passion points are and helping understand what's out there and make sense of the, the sort of digital wilderness, if you will, and, and help you, you know, get to the heart of what you're trying to accomplish and, and, and get that done.

Speaker 1: Mm. My understanding is Yahoo reaches about 90% of the US population. Is, is that correct?

Speaker 2: That, that's right, nine in 10 Americans every month.

Speaker 1: Wow. So I mean, that's, that's huge-

Speaker 1: ... uh, in, in the first instance. And you're very much sort of transforming the business, turning it around is, is probably a fair way to describe it. What signs are you looking out for in terms of, you know, how are you measuring that turnaround, that, that success, um, how things are actually working?

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's, uh, it's a great question. And to your point, the, you know, there's tremendous scale. It's part of what attracted me to the opportunity to, to come in, take the b- uh, be involved in taking the business private. Uh, the... Underneath that, really what we're looking at is, you know, how do we help you accomplish those goals? What are those user needs that are core to what makes each one of our properties unique? And are we seeing increased engagement from our user base, uh, because we are doing a better job of, of accomplishing those, those goals for, for our users? And so, uh, it's really the, the depth of engagement and the increase in, in, in user behavior that's getting us excited about, about the, the potential here.

Speaker 1: I really love the idea of being a scout, and w- we'll come onto that.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: But you know, being there, being the u- utility for people, helping them find their way. Um-

Speaker 2: Let's go, Yahoo

Speaker 1: ... how do you decide what problems Yahoo should solve versus ones that perhaps you, you know, you leave on the table, you leave alone?

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. Uh, when, when we took the business private, uh, you know, we s- we started with an unbelievable set of properties, uh, whether it's, uh, our, you know, Yahoo Finance, Yahoo Sports, Mail, News, Search, uh, Weather, you know, it's really people's core passions, their daily habits. You know, we were, we're, we play a, a vital role in their, in their digital lives. And so, you know, the, the starting point there was just how do you make those better? Uh, in, in '21 when the business was taken private, AI was, didn't have nearly the focus that, that it, that it does today, but, you know, that's only been, I would say, uh, kind of really kind of p- ga- gas has been put on that fire because of the, the potential that we have with, with AI. Um, but from there we can see, you know, adjacent activities that either are, you know, things that our users are trying to do all the time in, in, in, in, in, in Mail or that they're searching for constantly, and that helps guide us in, in terms of what are those next utilities that, that make a lot of sense for, for consumers where we can be that trusted guide and help them, help them on their digital journey.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Tell me a bit about Scout. So it looks like a, a big bet from the outside. Um, yeah, and, and t- tell us about the problems that you're looking to solve there, uh, and, and what that product's starting to look like.

Speaker 2: Sure. You know, uh, the, there's no question in our mind that what consumers expect as they are doing research or, or kind of asking a question is, has evolved considerably in the last year or two. Uh, you know, people are now expecting that a lot of the work can be taken out of that process and, and they, you know, that an answer should be delivered more so than just a, a sort of step on that discovery journey where there's a set of links to, to, to, to, to other sites. Um, but that doing that with high confidence, doing that grounded in, you know, sort of waypoints to the, the places where that information came from-

Speaker 1: Mm

Speaker 2: ... is, it kinda helps give a user more confidence in the answer that, that, that's being delivered. Um, we think that this is just going to open up even more inquiry from, from, from consumers that realize that they now have these, these incredibly powerful companions that can help answer a lo- a lot more questions for them, and also then help start to facilitate some of the steps in the journey of getting, getting whatever it is done that you're looking to do. And so, you know, for us, we think it's foundational to the evolution of ... the consumer journey and, and consumer experience. It's not, you know, we don't even think about it as the evolution of traditional search. It's, it's almost a completely new category of just getting the answers to your questions and then helping start to take the steps to, to, to get things done.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So what we're talking about here is trust as well.

Speaker 2: That's right.

Speaker 1: I mean, people are forming-

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely

Speaker 1: ... relationships, aren't they, at the end of the day with the AIs they trust?

Speaker 2: That's right, and, you know, Yahoo being 31 years old, being a brand that, that many people grew up with that is, you know, recognized, uh, globally-

Speaker 1: Mm

Speaker 2: ... uh, we, we think that, you know, it's a, it's, it's a responsibility certainly to do a great job with that, but that we can come from a starting point of, of folks knowing a bit more about who we are and what we stand for than, than maybe other players in the market.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I also think that people ask very sensitive questions of AI.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: Um, con- Some stuff may be confidential or, or bordering on confidential as well.

Speaker 2: That's right. That's right.

Speaker 1: Um, so yeah, I mean, 100% you've, you've really got to trust because you're putting so much data, more data than before in, in other people's hands.

Speaker 2: That, that, that's right, and, and, and so, you know, really consumers using platforms that, you know, they, they know are world-class in user privacy and, and, you know, really kind of taking those responsibilities very seriously is, is gonna be essential-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... to where this goes.

Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you a question that you may have a point of view on. So in the UK there was recently a CMA ruling.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: Um, and that ruled on the side of UK publishers to block their content or have their content removed from Google Answers.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: Well, um, what's your point of view on, um, uh, publishers, um, your data, you know, your content being, you know, sucked, sucked up, um, being taken into LLMs?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think- I, I think it's, it's critical that publishers that are creating content have the agency to decide how that content is being used, and if it is, uh, being provided to a, a model to, to train, that that's being done in a way that they're fully in control of and being compensated for in the, in the right way. I think, you know, we have a ways to go as an industry in figuring out what that compensation model should look like, but, but there are I think fortunately some, some great, you know, early experiments and, and models being, being tested right now. Um, but I think that that ruling got a lot of things right in terms of giving publishers that control with- without any fear of retribution or maybe retribution's not the, not... Maybe that's too strong a word, but-

Speaker 1: Sure

Speaker 2: ... the fear that there's, there's no kind of sort of decrease in how they're gonna show up in other-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... in other forms.

Speaker 1: Or, you know, uh, perhaps it's the start of a, a new commercial model, um, a proper strategic commercial relationship with, um, the AI-

Speaker 2: That's, that's-

Speaker 1: ... companies that are out there

Speaker 2: ... that's right. You know, I think the other side of that is that publishers have a responsibility to be creating content that is valuable, um, and, and that is, is actually adding premium value to the, the, the answers that might be generated from, from an LLM. It's that-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... expertise, it's that recency and relevancy that are gonna really make something that is worth that economic trade. And, um, you know, so, so for so long we got focused on just how do we get the click from search into a, a publisher site that there's a lot of duplicative content out there and, and, and ways that maybe brands have become more diluted just focused on distribution. And I think you'll see this conversation play out on both sides, both, you know, how do publishers have more control-

Speaker 1: Mm

Speaker 2: ... but then also how do they create more content that's of real value that's differentiated, that actually contributes to making the models better?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I personally believe that, you know, the publishing model is gonna obviously shift. It's gonna change completely.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: The partnerships that they have with brands, whether they're B2B brand or B2C-

Speaker 2: Yep

Speaker 1: ... that relationship's gonna change. Uh, I frankly don't see them buying ads in the same way as, as they have in the past.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: Um, they need really good quality content. Uh, they need it distributed. They need the right publishing partners, um, for that information to get into the LLMs in, in the first instance.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: Um, I love what you were saying in terms of the, you know, content. I mean, you have quality content in droves as well.

Speaker 2: Yep, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Um, and, you know, and, and that information is obviously rich for yourselves in terms of the products you're developing. Um, it's rich for the companies that you're partnering with as well. Um, and you know, it, it's great content for the, um, for the AI engines-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... um, to help, uh, individuals who are, you know, seeking, seeking answers.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I think all of that is absolutely true, and I think the other element of this to the models changing is that what represents a, a great audience is, is going to be much more qualified going forward. And so, uh, you know, we... Audiences may be smaller but much higher intent. They, you know, as content gets to be of higher quality, uh, and, and more differentiated, you, you may not get to the same number of people, but the, the level of conversion or the, the level of kind of interest and, and, and deep expertise that the, the users are, uh, representing when they get to your site or when they get to your content is, is going to be a, a much higher bar, a much higher filter. And so I think the key there is how do publishers then make the most out of that? Don't think about the sort of aggregate holistic audience where maybe there's a lot of just passing by con- content consumption that, you know, is unintended clicks or otherwise. Um, but, but people who are truly there because they're looking to go deeper in understanding a problem or researching a product decision or, you know, tho- those types of things.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I, I absolutely love the idea of that. I mean, in the past, unfortunately there has been a, a race to the bottom-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... in terms of-

Speaker 2: No question

Speaker 1: ... CPM models-

Speaker 2: Yep

Speaker 1: ... various models that have been there. Um, but- Confusion, frankly, in terms of how brands buy ads and, and why they buy ads-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... and where they're serving those ads. Um, but I really like the idea of being able to get much deeper intent now. Can we go into that a little bit, a little bit more?

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So, you know, how are you detecting those intent signals and how are you bringing that into your, uh, your advertising business?

Speaker 2: Well, I, I think that, you know, what, um ... Let's, let's just say, let's just maybe talk about a product review for, for instance.

Speaker 1: Mm.

Speaker 2: Um, you know, the m- the, the people that are getting to that product review as these distribution models change are typically much further down the, the product research path than, than we would have seen before. You know, instead of, instead of 100 clicks where 60 of them might have just, just sort of churned out very quickly, and, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's that 40 that are left that, you know ... What we're seeing is a lot of those are still getting to that, that page because, you know, the, the, the answers are in, in these new engines are, are giving the, the sort of quick snapshot that you need. And then if you're gonna, if you're gonna make a big purchase, you're gonna wanna go a little bit deeper and read a-

Speaker 1: Sure

Speaker 2: ... read a couple of articles. And so I, I think the opportunity for publishers then is thinking about, okay, how do I, how do I take that and create a somewhat different experience? Maybe it's that I'm adding, uh, comparison guides and I can kind of pick which products I want to, uh, stack up a- on the, the various tested metrics that we, you know, we've, we have as a, as a product review team. Or, um, you know, maybe it's that I'm looking for a store locator where I can map out where the, you know, the various, uh, retailers are that are, that are in my neighborhood. But I'm, I'm adding utility to that that I already know I'm high intent with my audience, so it's actually worth it to, to do that because a higher percentage of those people are gonna take advantage of those utilities-

Speaker 1: Mm

Speaker 2: ... that I know are, are kind of contributing to that, that, that purchase funnel. And so I guess what I'm saying there is just the, the, you know, content creators moving from just creating content to thinking more about, you know, how, how do they provide more utility and, and richer capability around that content for the people they know are incredibly high intent? Because those are the folks that are ... you're, you're actually gonna get in your audience. It, it will be smaller, but it will be a much more valuable ... Sort of the density of value will be much higher.

Speaker 1: Mm. Yeah. So I mean, we're, we're talking about ... It's just a, it's a paradigm shift, isn't it, frankly, in the way the whole advertising market-

Speaker 2: Absolutely

Speaker 1: ... has evolved.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Um, and, you know, really being able to understand where your spend is, is, is, is working, is, is, is performing in a way that we haven't been able to before.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: Um, and being useful, frankly.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, and, and providing solutions to people who are, who are looking for answers.

Speaker 2: It's the thing that has me most excited about this next chapter is that there is a shift from just scale and volume and tonnage to being useful-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... and, and really kind of thinking about is, is there, you know, is there, is there a core user need that you're solving in, in whatever it is you're delivering?

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's a race up in quality, isn't it?

Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: You know, so it's a race to the top whilst the, you know, there has been a race to the bottom-

Speaker 2: Yep. Yep. Yep

Speaker 1: ... over the years as well. Thinking about that, um, have you noticed a shift in terms of what brands are looking for from yourselves? So has there been a shift towards brand storytelling, um, wanting to get more content out for you guys?

Speaker 2: You know, I, I think that generally at a, at a macro level the, the trends that we're expecting are shifting more toward outcomes. That, um, you know, whether it's how can we bring our data and an advertiser's data together to, you know, deliver better outcomes for, for the business, um, h- how do we better understand where consumers are at in their journey and m- meet them where they're at with the right message at the right time, uh, and then understand that, that, you know, as best we can, filling in the, the, the closed loop to, to really understand where the, you know, where the transaction's happening. Um, those are all in the service of being more directly engaged as business partners and, and, you know, focusing on are we delivering return on ad spend that, that is working for our, for our advertising partners. And I think you're just gonna see more and more focus there, particularly as these models get more powerful in, um, kinda helping facilitate pieces of that, of that, that workflow on the, on the advertising side.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And what, what are you hearing from the other side? I mean, how, how well-educated are the marketers at this point in time? Or do you feel that there is a, a big ed- education piece that's required at the moment?

Speaker 2: N- no, I actually feel like there's kind of more curiosity and engagement than maybe I've, I've seen in 20 years-

Speaker 1: Wow

Speaker 2: ... in, in advertising. Um, I think that people, people are very aware that these new capabilities with AI tooling, uh, workflow tooling are, are, are gonna change what's possible. Uh, there's a tremendous amount of individual experimentation that's happening, and that's leading to, I think, really exciting outcomes happening faster than I would have expected them to have-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... happen.

Speaker 1: And what are you hearing from them in terms of the agentic tools that they might be using, um, and perhaps where they still need a human in the loop?

Speaker 2: I, I think that that's, you know, the, the evolution of workflow, uh, where you need a human in the loop, where, you know, h- where you're shifting from that being very tactical to being more strategic, um, those are all ... The rate of change there is, is stunning. And, and what, what I would have said even six months ago versus what I think we'll be saying in six months, the, the arc of that is all moving toward- Um, you know, the, the more you're investing in a shared knowledge base, the more you're investing in skills that are repeatable, uh, you, you can increasingly take the human out of the loop on the, the tactical workflow side of, side of things. Uh, but I think that that then frees up a lot more room for, for strategy. And, and, and what's incredible also about what's happening is that, you know, there are non-intuitive connections between data points that we never would have had the time to see or, um, maybe even the intuition to see that, that that combination of human strategist and machine insight is-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... I think gonna lead to, to much richer outcomes on that front. Um, so it's, I, I think it's an incredibly exciting time on that, on, on that s- that scale, but, but very much in the, the sort of strategy and creative side of things, uh, where we'll then just see tr- I think tremendous efficiency on the workflow side.

Speaker 1: Sure. I mean, certainly s- freeing up when you talk about automation and workflow, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Um, and frees up much more time for thinking, for strategizing-

Speaker 2: Yep

Speaker 1: ... for planning-

Speaker 2: Absolutely

Speaker 1: ... you know, et cetera. Totally agree. Um, you're obviously continuing to invest in DSP, fantastic. Um, and you're also leaning into other Yahoo-owned properties.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: How do you balance being a, a media owner, but also a partner to buyers?

Speaker 2: The... It is, it's a great question. I actually think that that same mission that, you know, how do we be that trusted guide to the digital wilderness is just as important for Yahoo News as it is for the Yahoo DSP. Uh, you know, they're, you know, knowing, knowing where to buy with confidence, knowing how to bring data to that decision in ways that are gonna get the most out of, you know, the performance of your, your media investment, those are wa- ways that we have a, I think, a really unique role to play because we actually sit as scaled publisher and, uh, and, and, and demand platform, decision platform. Um, you know, they are very different businesses, right? One is a, one is a B2B business that's helping agencies and advertisers make better decisions cross-channel about buying their media and, you know, bringing data to that to drive better outcomes and better return on ad spend. Uh, the other's solving those problems for consumers. Um, but they, they really, I, I think do interplay in ways that, that, that we're really excited about and we think kinda all come back to that, that core point of being that trusted guide.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And you've, you've obviously spent many years on the publisher side-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... uh, and also the platform side a- as, as well. So does that give you a particular perspective, uh, or a, a viewpoint might be a nice way of describing it, um, of where this balance that I, I think you're touching on, frankly, should land?

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's, I, I, I've always enjoyed working in platform businesses. I think the, the scale there is really powerful in, in actually bringing better outcomes to, to everyone involved. Um, and you know, I, I think that if you, if you can get the kind of core foundational principles right, then you can, you know, build incredible product teams that are thinking about the specific user needs of whatever they're working on, and that's where the magic happens. That you have, you know, the maybe the, the, the constraints, but also the, the, the kind of scale of that foundation being, uh, kind of standardized across the entire business, and that means then that you can do really exceptional things, whether that's, you know, delivering value in the Fantasy app on, you know, being the, the assistant general manager recommending trades, or that's on the DSP, uh, recommending optimizations to your media plan.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I would love to get your perspective on this. I'm just thinking kind of future gazing-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... might be a nice way of looking at it. So, you know, looking at the open web, looking at the, the business, the operating models of, of companies, people who publish content, all forms of businesses out there-

Speaker 2: Yep

Speaker 1: ... and the fact that people are going to answer engines, and that's only gonna increase and increase and increase as we know, of course.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: Uh, and we're gonna have our trusted guides, our scouts-

Speaker 2: Yep

Speaker 1: ... uh, in our pockets or perhaps on a wearable or, or something else.

Speaker 2: Or in your ear. It might be audio.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, it would be really good to, to understand from yourself what you believe, um, that might look like in terms of a future vision.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I, I think o- o- one of the things that, that I always come back to in this, you know, this, with this particular question is that, you know, these brands that have stood the test of time have done that because they had a point of view. They, they, they had a particular perspective or, uh, you know, kind of tastemaker position that, that people relied on. And the, that wasn't just because they had access to distribution channels, it was because of whatever that, that brand s- stood for. And there's no question the world's gonna be different, uh, going forward than, than it has been. Uh, but the, your ability to make something has, ha- It's never been more powerful than it is today. The, you know, the, the actual act of creating software is nearly fungible, and it's now really gonna be more about how do you bring unique data and perspective together with kind of an idea for what you could create, and then use that to connect audience. And so I think the, the media companies that are gonna survive here are gonna do that because they take really unique perspective and point of view and build real utility around that, and in doing that can connect with a core audience, a deeply engaged audience, probably a smaller audience, almost certainly a smaller audience, but one that, that really gets a lot of value out of what that brand stands for and the, and the utility you can wrap around that. And that might be, you know, a f- a filter of kindness traveler on top of all the hotels in the world that gives you more confidence that the ones you're picking are ... the, the ones you're gonna wanna stay at because you're a, a traveler that, that really kind of leans into that.

Speaker 1: Mm.

Speaker 2: Um, you know, we could come up with any number of other applications like that. But I think publishers starting to really play with how they build more functionality and utility on top of just their content in and of itself, and then focusing on getting to a, a higher quality of, of the content they're distributing that's more differentiated. That's, that's where, that's where I think the magic's really gonna happen. It's why I think B2B is actually such a, such a phenomenal category regardless of what's happening because they really sort of crafted that, that niche in, in their respective fields.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think that AI is making people better communicators?

Speaker 2: Certainly not today.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: Uh, I, I think that AI is enabling the volume of communication to go up, um, and in a lot of respects I think the, the thought behind that isn't... I- I- it, it, it's a lot harder to review 20 pages of material than it is two.

Speaker 1: Mm.

Speaker 2: Um, and, and so it's never been easier to generate 20 pages. The, the sort of-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... density of thought there, I, I think you're, we're gonna see a move towards kind of refinement in that, that ends up better expressing ideas and, and communication. These can be powerful tools, but right now in some ways I think they're still being used in a pretty lazy way.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I asked a question.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... a friend of mine came along. He's not from our industry at all. He works as a project manager within the construction industry. He sat in on a whole load of talks, and he was actually really excited by what he was learning.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: Um, and he'd never sat in on a, a presentation to do with AI or marketing-

Speaker 2: Hmm. Yeah

Speaker 1: ... or anything along those lines before. And he came away and he said, "Actually, I think AI's gonna help me understand my business more, the company that I work for-

Speaker 2: Yep

Speaker 1: ... my role in the business, the mission of the company. Um, and I think it might help me communicate a little bit better-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... than I do at this point in time."

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: So I thought it was... I thought that was really interesting how he could see this and, and how-

Speaker 2: I love that insight. Yeah

Speaker 1: ... it unlocked so much-

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah

Speaker 1: ... so much for him along the way.

Speaker 2: But you can, you can already see even in those statements the, the thought process of the, the way you're using it as a tool. He's not just sitting back saying, "Write me a document." He's using it as a way to, to learn, and to better connect, and to align. And, and so there's a, there's a feedback loop in that that I think gets to that better communication-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... that's gonna be really important.

Speaker 1: Do you also think... Okay, so when, when we look at B2B businesses in the past, to be honest, I feel that they've looked a little bit vanilla.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: They look a little bit similar to each other. They've struggled to differentiate themselves. Do you think there's a, a rise now of B2Bs developing more of a personality in terms of how they present themselves, how they show up, how they communicate?

Speaker 2: I, I think that's definitely one vector you could, you could really differentiate on. Um, I think the other one that you've seen tried but it's hard to get right is, is differentiate a community-

Speaker 1: Mm

Speaker 2: ... uh, and real sort of depth of connection with the right kinds of people that are gonna either deepen your understanding or broaden your connection to an industry. Um, but those, those feel like the vectors that are, that are-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... gonna be important here.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Community's a really interesting one.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: So do you feel that the brands now are starting to, hmm, appreciate, understand their ecosystem that they're sat in a little bit more, and are starting to think about communities and how they serve the community?

Speaker 2: Yeah, abs- uh, uh, absolutely. I, I think you've seen that building over, over a number of years. Even, even as things like, like creator economy and, uh, you know, the social proof that comes with those types of environments, uh, is influencing consumer decisions. I, I think people are taking that more and more seriously. Um, you know, I think there's some cynicism in having that be overdone, but... And you have to figure out how to do that at scale, but, uh, but where you get that right, where there's real authenticity, you know, special things can happen-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... for a brand.

Speaker 1: And we've, we've certainly seen, um, an explosion in terms of creator economy-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... for sure. I mean, it, it's exponential growth. Um, I'm thinking about brand owners such as Unilever, for instance-

Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah

Speaker 1: ... putting so much of, of their spend now into, uh, investment with, with creators.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: Um, and as you touched on earlier, the, the fact that people are much more outcome-focused at this point in time.

Speaker 2: Right. Right.

Speaker 1: Um, do you also feel that CMOs, uh, you know, just thinking about outcomes, are being asked to do more for, for less at this point-

Speaker 1: ... in time? Is that a recurring theme?

Speaker 2: Yeah, there's, there's, there's no question that, uh... You know, I think also the, the, the turnover and s- the tenure of CMOs that, that you hear talked about in the industry-

Speaker 1: Mm

Speaker 2: ... um, it's, you know, the role that the, the chief financial officer's playing, uh, or the procurement group is playing in, in, in the, the conversation now. Uh, all of those are putting pressure on moving toward, toward outcomes-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... uh, for sure. Um, I think brands often get reminded in that process the importance of brand equity and needing to reinvest in the top of funnel, uh, but there's no question that that's, you know, that's, that's very much... This will be as much a creative decision as a financial decision for, for many companies going forward.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, C- CFOs are certainly taking a, a lot more land, as it were-

Speaker 1: ... in terms of marketing decisions and, and decision-making.

Speaker 2: Well, and the growth expectations on, on companies in, in today's market are, are tremendous-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... and so that's, you know, that, that's important.

Speaker 1: And the, the tenure's an interesting one, and also the fact that globally when you look at boards of directors, boards of businesses, there's only about 2.5, 3%, um- Represented in terms of, uh, a CMO being on the board.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Do you feel that needs to change? Do you feel that perhaps the CMO needs to be better equipped in terms of what they present and why, and perhaps it's, perhaps it's language as well?

Speaker 2: I, I think that often more of the change comes from the, the, the outlier or the sort of rebel company that, that takes a different approach and then has tremendous success because-

Speaker 1: Mm

Speaker 2: ... maybe they invested more in brand strategy and that, that really drove a turnaround. Um, you know, even something like, uh, like, like Stanley as comes to mind as a, as a brand that, you know, fundamentally turned itself around because of brand. I- I- I think as, as some of those examples, uh, become more talked about, you'll see a reevaluation of that. So it becomes less about, well, do I have the right mix and is the percentage right, and more about how do I emulate the success of some of these incredible turnaround stories, incredible brand stories that, that clearly drove kind of, uh, outsized outcomes for those businesses.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I wonder if marketing is sometimes looked on as, uh, the promotions department in, in some ways.

Speaker 2: Sure.

Speaker 1: Uh, and that's perhaps marketing's fault sometimes in terms of how they presented themselves within-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... and how they show up within the business.

Speaker 2: But I also think we have to recognize it's sometimes it's context dependent. We, you know, you have to look at the broader picture of what's that company going through? What are, what are their overall growth expectations, or what's the competitive dynamic happening? And sometimes it, it can seem like an expression of a marketing decision, but it may actually have to do with, uh, other things that are happening in the, the, the sort of landscape of how that company's sitting in, you know, in the marketplace that that's driving that. The- Their growth expectations might not be meeting what the Street is looking for, or, you know, there might be, uh, kind of activist investor dynamics or, um, you know, competitive dynamics that are, that are having tremendous impact on decisions that the company can make and how much latitude they have to, to, to move.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I'm also thinking about the world of tech and tech marketing. So over the last 10 years, it's been pretty much performance at all cost.

Speaker 2: That's right. Yep.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Um-

Speaker 2: Just focused on-

Speaker 1: And, you know, CFO-

Speaker 2: ... customer install

Speaker 1: ... needing short-term, you know, short-term outcomes-

Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah

Speaker 1: ... et cetera, et cetera. Um, and money was cheap as well. You know, we've, we've had huge interest rates and so on, so, uh, it was easy to raise a whole load of capital and again, throw that into building more

Speaker 2: Right. You can invest in short-term growth and-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... and that, that was rewarded.

Speaker 1: Um, and, you know, we've gone through a change, economic change, um, geopolitical changes, um, changes in user and, and customer behavior.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: Um, changes that you've talked a bit to in terms of the, the customer journey-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

Speaker 1: ... fundamentally shifting. Um, do you think those aspects are forcing marketing to reevaluate itself, um, forcing the, the brand perhaps, sorry, the, the, the board to, uh, reevaluate marketing's role within the, the wider enterprise, uh, and perhaps become the, the heroes of the, the next chapter?

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: You know, in, in terms of, of we've lost all this traffic and we've got a transactional website.

Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's-

Speaker 1: Uh, would it help? What are we gonna do?

Speaker 2: I think it's a, it's a great question, and I think it starts with going back to that change that you framed. It, it, it starts with recognizing that, uh, nothing is the same today. Um, and I think the companies that can understand that, bring in or empower the right marketers that, that are connected to that change in a way that they understand how to, how to really unlock for the business-

Speaker 1: Mm

Speaker 2: ... and then take the risk to do that, are gonna see phenomenal results. But if, if, if you're off on any of that, if, if there's some kind of impedance mismatch there where there, there's a lack of understanding or a, uh, maybe some- you know, somebody's not willing to, to sort of admit that there's been as much change as there has been, um, you know, then it's gonna be, it's gonna be tough to drive results.

Speaker 1: Mm. I'm just gonna ask you a couple of quick-fire questions.

Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 1: Do you have a, um, a go-to resource or podcast or something that you, you... that's inspired you recently? Could be a book, could be anything.

Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Um, I s- I've actually m- most recently been just reading a bunch of historical biography because it's unbelievable the... I would say the par- particularly like industrial revolution, how much things were different on a very short timeframe then, and that's been, that's been really, uh, inspiring. Um, and just trying to use that as a frame of reference of just how, you know, how uncomfortable electricity was for people or, or, you know, the, the combustion engine, um, that, uh... So I think there's, there's lessons to draw from that in, in what we're going through right now. Um, and then I, I, I just, I think your, your network of people you talk to that are all sharing ideas or something they read or, or, or whatnot, I think that's, it's, it's been really, particularly as we're trying to w- you know, within the company, understand what AI means to how we work-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... um, it's, it's been so fun to just to have that depth of excitement and, and, and engagement just sharing with each other on, on things we're finding.

Speaker 1: And is there a, a B2B brand that's out there, or perhaps a B2C that's just doing tremendous marketing that you admire at this point in time?

Speaker 2: I... I'm trying to think of a B2B brand that I think is... You know, I actually think that the, the work that Google's doing trying to connect their, their entire ecosystem and just how broad it is, um, is, is really, really impressive, um, on the, on the B2B side. So, um, that's, that's, that's one I, I think, you know, just the, the visual language and the connectivity of what they've tried to do and just how cohesive it is across their entire portfolio is really, really impressive.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, that's coming through this week at Can, isn't it?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Quite frankly.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: They have a tremendous activation. Final question. So a, a piece of advice that you would offer to a younger person who's looking to get into the advertising, marketing, media, uh, industry.

Speaker 2: Uh, I think that the, the biggest thing is just rolling up your sleeves and trying something. You know, just if there's an opportunity or a project to work on, just, you know, taking it and just kind of really being open to whatever comes your way. Uh, and then as you do that, really trying to challenge preconception and, and find, you know, there's, there's so many different ways of working that are starting to emerge in this last year. Um, and, you know, some of the most impressive things I'm seeing are from young people who are trying different tools and experimenting with, with capabilities that, you know, would've felt really uncomfortable or, or unnatural to, you know, people who have been doing the same thing for, for a long time, and getting some remarkable results out of that. And not, not every time being right the first go around, but being willing to stick with it and-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... and, uh, you know, keep refining to a point where you get, you get an output that's, that's, that's remarkable.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I to- I totally agree. Well, look, thanks Matt. You've been a-

Speaker 2: Yeah, this has been really fun

Speaker 1: ... incredible guest on the show today.

Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: Been a pleasure to have you.

Speaker 2: Enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: Good.