Effectiveness Over Efficiency

Speaker 1: I'm really delighted to welcome to this episode of The Business Marketing, recorded live here at Cannes Lions, uh, Rory Dolan, who's the VP of marketing strategy from Canva, um, a brand that everyone has heard of and that is causing, you know, a phenomenal buzz here at the Lions. Um, so Rory, thank you so much for joining us today.

Speaker 2: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Um, first of all, let's, let's get straight into it. Sort of you, you've had, you know, a really interesting kinda career journey to date. Why don't you kinda just plot us kind of on the kind of the path you've been on, and what kind of particular kind of highlights, you know, you'd like to sort of mention along the way that have really helped you get to where you are now at Canva?

Speaker 2: Sure. So, um, I guess interestingly, I started my career in banking very briefly. Um, did that for a while and realized I think I wanted to work in a more creative environment. Um, it was pretty fortuitous. This is around the time of the growth of programmatic, the digitization of media and advertising, and so there were some transferable skills from there. Um, from there, I then moved into agencies where I spent the best part of a decade and a half doing everything from running media planning teams, media buying teams, creative teams. Um, was fortunate enough to work at the early stages of machine learning and data science, and so built teams for that for Group M. Um, built a consultancy for young brands that worked on anything from media optimization, creative optimization, product optimization, even through to helping to work on modeling the impact of climate change on their business. Um, from there, I then made the jump platform side, um, where I helped set up the marketing science team across APAC, and then owned that, um, function across Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and then looked after creative effectiveness across the Middle East and APAC region. Um, shortly before leaving there, I then moved into a head of customer solutions, where I was responsible for the overall technical product, um, with an Israeli market, ran sales teams, creative teams, product teams, technical sales teams, and now I'm here at Canva, uh, as the VP of marketing strategy. But I'd probably say my background is probably a marketing scientist first and an aspiring or failed creative second.

Speaker 1: And I think that, that art and science kind of, uh, dynamic is, is so interesting. Um, you know, we hear a lot at the moment about that sort of intersection obviously with kind of AI, which we're gonna get into more. Um, sort of like, you know, kind of, you know, first, second, I, I love that kind of analogy. What has the journey to date sort of really taught you, I suppose, about, about that kinda hybrid combined kind of, um, perspective that you have on the world?

Speaker 2: Sure. I mean, when you spend enough time looking at the data, I think there's two types of people. They either entrench themselves into the data and really see the view- the world through those very kind of narrow outlook. Um, the second is that you start to see almost an emergent effect, and that is the power of creativity. Uh, it's a very hard thing to measure. It's such a nebulous concept. It can be highly subjective, but it really is the multiplier when we look at outcomes. I've been fortunate enough to look at or analyze millions and millions of campaigns, advertising creatives, worked with thousands of advertisers, and you see this intersection where strong fundamental marketing science planning, data-led planning, combined with those marketing science principles with real creativity. Like, I'd like to approach this, one of my big learning is that good media planning, good execution is invisible. It's all about the delivery. The product itself really is the creative itself. And so I think it's easy for us to lose sight of that, that really what our job is, is to try to add some degree of creativity, some degree of entertainment to people's lives. Um, that will, I think, build better outcomes. It also put more trust and faith in the industry as a whole.

Speaker 1: What a time to be alive right now. You know, uh, you, you know, on your journey and, you know, for me personally, you know, I just feel like we've just gone through so many revolutions. Um, two that kind of really spring to mind for me are kind of, I guess, you know, you know, from your perspective, the rise of the creator-led kind of, you know, kind of economy and sort of content through, you know, TikTok. Um, and now I suppose in a sense, you know, the democratization of creativity, I suppose in a sense, you know, um, through your Canva kind of lens. When you, when, you know, kind of d- how... Sort of, you know, what's fundamentally changed about kinda how brands are now connecting with people?

Speaker 2: I think the foundations are always the same. It's the context that changes. So there's a really interesting effect. There's an analogy to kind of highlight this, is that if you look back ten years ago, celebrity brands were all about tequila and alcohol. Um, just shortly prior to that, it was all about makeup. Now, the new celebrity brand are agencies, and I think there's a reason for that. They built their careers, their livelihood off of being connected to culture and understanding how to communicate with people, and I think this is where this big change is, um, is happening, is a shift from the custodianship of the advertising industry to people who functionally live, breathe, and operate inside culture. And I think this is what Canva really likes to try to work towards. The democratization really shifts the approach. It used to be all these tools were focused on this idea that you assumed technical capability, and then you needed intent. We now assume and provide that technical capability. It's now als- about your vision. And so that gets the technical out the way, so I'm able to focus on connecting with culture, co- connecting with their consumers, and driving better outcomes.

Speaker 1: And as I said earlier, before we started shooting, um, what, you know, what lessons, I guess, you know, that twenty/twenty hindsight have you got from the kind of TikTok experience that's proven most valuable with Canva?

Speaker 2: The strangest, uh, the creative that works best is never the one that you expect. I've been continuously surprised by this. Um, I guess very many late nights going through labeling creatives, working, as I said, potentially millions of them, at least the early stages, thousands, and it was a fantastic learning opportunity. The things that worked best were never the things that I thought they were. And so I think my biggest learning is always have an open mind to this. You're never the target for what you're building, and so never try to bring that bias into that. Focus on what actually works and what those consumers are really looking for. Those are the biggest ones. The second is always be nervous of short-term metrics. Short-term metrics will optimize for your, for you in the next month. The- they tend to drive worse outcomes in the long term. And so always keep those two, that, those two time horizons in mind Being creative tends to deliver more on the long term than it does in the short. The compounding effect of that is always bigger for the business.

Speaker 1: And how do you encourage brands to kind of hold the course?

Speaker 2: That's a tough one, and I think if you, if, if, if you know the answer to that, please let me know. Um, I think what this comes down to is a lot of time it's about changing how we communicate. So I think the industry, advertising, marketing as a whole, we tend to spend a lot of time talking about marketing metrics, um, awareness, whether that be aided, unaided, maybe it's more modern metrics, like mental market share, conversion rates, engagement. The business doesn't fundamentally care about that. Those are input metrics. I think we can stay the course by building better relationships with things like our CFOs and our finance teams and our CEOs by positioning the importance of these long-term decisions in metrics that actually matter to the business. Because at the end of the day, we're not here to lift brand awareness, we're here to actually build businesses, and I think that's probably the biggest l- learning and biggest recommendation I could probably give.

Speaker 1: That's a great segue into kind of what I think of as being the next chapter of this conversation, which is the headline being the creator economy comes of age. Um, you know, it's definitely kind of gone from being this niche kind of trend to being, you know, a major economic... Almost creativity has almost been sort of in some ways redefined. How do you kind of unpack it and sort of see its role today?

Speaker 2: I see this as coming back to your point around democratization. This is a democratization of both people's attention spans and their entertainment. I think we've moved a very long way from this, from, I guess, the golden era of advertising, where everyone sits down primetime TV and watches the big TV spot. Now that primetime TV spot is individual, and it happens at any point in the day. It doesn't happen at 6:00 PM. It can happen at the middle of the day on the way to work. And the people who drive those are the people that you're most connected to. Um, I tend to think a lot about the behavioral economics space around this and the messenger effect. We trust information from people who look like us. That doesn't have to be gender or sociodemographic. It can be interest-based, and I think that's what's really driving this. Um, maybe moving beyond that, though, is this idea of having to become more comfortable with allowing other people to tell your brand's story. Um, I think we spent the last best part of a century trying to control that. Um, what creators do, what influencers do, depending on, I guess, what area of the market you're working in, they build a way to actually communicate your brand story in a way that you don't anticipate. And so being comfortable with that and building that collaboration and partnership of the long term is really h- how we tend to approach this. But there's a fascinating, I think, addendum to this, is the creator cliff. We're rapidly approaching what looks to be a creator cliff, which is this paradox is as these creators get bigger and they, they diversify and move into bigger partnerships, bigger business opportunities, they lose the connection to those audiences. And so I think we're about to, to enter this new phase, which is how do creators themselves manage that process? They need to be bigger for their livelihoods, but that can also alienate those audiences. And so it's how do we strike this balance, ensure that we as brands as well are not contributing to the alienation of creators and influencers in their own markets.

Speaker 1: It's really fascinating, and it sort of, it sort of linked to kind of my next question really, and you mentioned sort of two, two words kind of almost in the same sentence there, but I wanna kind of just get your kind of perspective on the difference really. You know, in some ways we've kind of like, you know, uh, as part of that kind of evolution, gone from celebrities, you know, um, early years of this new kind of wave we're in to kind of influencers and, and now, you know, um, the word creator is becoming kind of almost in some ways a replacement, you know, or, or a metamorphization of, of the kind of influencer. Um, how do you, how do you kind of... Uh, you know, do you, do you see it that way? Or, you know... And, and if and, if not, then challenge me, but, uh, but also kind of like what's the next stage of that evolution?

Speaker 2: I think the next stage of this evolution is probably like an extension of the de-siloing that we've seen across the industry, uh, these siloed, um, functions, performance, brand, activation, experiential. We've seen these start to cons- to de-silo and consolidate into one to build better experiences. I think the next stage of this evolution is not being as so dogmatic about where and how we build those stories, so the focus on building the best stories possible. Um, I think maybe on a more micro scale, I think maybe one of the next stages is, and we can already see this really manifesting, is really this is about humanity, and I tend to think some of the best storytellers for a brand are their own people and the humanity that they can bring to that, as they understand it, they live and breathe it. And so I think we're gonna see both the democratization of the individual inside these companies as well as democratization of, we're not gonna put budget just to creators, just to TV. It's going to be, we're gonna put budget to where we can tell the story best for the needs that we have.

Speaker 1: Through the person best to tell it.

Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1: I love that. That's really, really interesting. When you, when you sort of look at kind of, you know, brands, you know, and, and, and kind of how they're working with creators today, sort of like, you know, what separates successful kind of partnerships from other successful ones?

Speaker 2: You do. I mean, it's probably a cliché, but briefing. Briefing is always the starting point. Um, I think most campaigns are won and lost in the quality of your brief, and sort of having been fortunate to spend a long time working inside TikTok at the advent of this, uh, it's one of the biggest learnings I found there. The, the brands and the creators who get the best outcomes are the ones who spend a, um, a lot of time in a briefing stage. I think that's probably the first one. The second is being clear on the things that can't be changed around your brand and being comfortable and open around the things that can. There's always a story that you haven't identified, and those creators tend to be very good at doing that. Um, but coming and circling back to the things that really drive those outcomes, the core things that make an ad appealing are still there. Uh, your distinctive brand assets, having your product or your brand story being key to that. If you remove those things, we're just making content. Uh, I tend to think one of the first bits of work I ever did in this space was with a very large, um, electronics brand, built some of the best content they'd ever seen, no impact on their business, and what I found when analyzing their creative is that their brand was not present in any way They had just built content. And I think it's that keeping that in mind-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... that you're still building content or still building an ad. We can't lose sight of the fact of we're now entertainers, we're trying to build films. No, we're doing advertising, and I think that's the key to getting that success, and that seems tends to be what separates the successful brands from the non-successful brands.

Speaker 1: Let's move to sort of Canva, I guess, a little bit, sort of, you know, so that sort of shift that, that sort of, you know, from design tool to operating system, as I mentioned at the beginning. You know, obviously, you know, in relative terms, new kid on the block, high awareness. Most people if you ask them, "Oh, Canva's a, you know, design platform kind of thing." But, you know, perhaps, you know, for, for, for, for people who are perhaps more in tune with where you are, it's definitely starting to feel like it's something bigger. How do you go about kind of describing Canva today?

Speaker 2: I would say, probably starts with, well, like our brand positioning is, "Anyone can with Canva." And I think that really highlights how we seem to think about the b- the business, and the product, and what we try, what we mean to our consumers. Which is that we fundamentally believe everyone is creative in some way, uh, in some kind, and they all have a story or something that they need to communicate. And I think the purpose of our business is to democratize that and to pull that potential out of people, um, to remove that gatekeeping that used to be associated with strong visual communication, and providing people with the tools to either communicate that well in the business sense or to make their thing a thing, whatever that may be. That seems to be how we think about it. Uh, and for me, this big kind of peak moment, to kind of come back to behavioral economics, is that moment that people have been able to take their idea and build it into something without that gatekeeping, without the need for professional support, without all those resources. That moment, that is a special moment, and that's what our business tends to be built around.

Speaker 1: And in a world where kind of content demand has exploded, you know, how does an organization perhaps geared up for a different world adapt?

Speaker 2: So I think it's starting with the brand at the core. Like Canva is built around the concept of a brand kit. Every element that you do needs to be consistent to ensure that you can actually facilitate that massive growth of creative. Um, and I think that's probably the key to this. The other is identifying or realizing that pretty much any part of your business or any part of your even friendship group can be and are creative, and that content has to come from many different places. We can't just depend on building these very expensive ads in some way or another. We need to be able to build that content out of every element. Um, and that's really what the focus of this, of the product actually is around is, and that's what we're there to facilitate, is you can build very large volumes of creative. They're consistently on brand, they're consistently creative, and also provide a positive feeling to the people doing it. Like I firmly believe, and I think Canva does as well, that you should enjoy your work. You should enjoy being creative, and the tool is built around doing that. You get that right, you get your brand presence, you'll get good, very large amounts of creative very quickly.

Speaker 1: And, you know, in practical terms, sort of like, um, what does the kind of that, the future sort of creative kind of workflow look like in that, in that sort of example you just gave?

Speaker 2: So I think it's probably not, not even an open secret. It's very well known we're being pivotal transitioning into the AI world. Um, I think how we tend to look at this is how do we enable AI to drive better outcomes for people? I think a lot of the dialogue at the moment around AI is it is a tool, and I think, uh, the future of this for us is how do we move away from it being a tool and focusing on the outcome? Um, that looks very different to many different people. Um, I think we're still very much at the advent of this. Um, but we also, I think what is interesting, we tend to as an industry, as, as global population, overestimate the speed with which this change happens, but underestimate the depth of the impact. And I think that's where you'll really start to see Canva really kind of come to life and what the future will look like here, are tools that'll really facilitate bringing that thing that's inside your head to life in a way which is fast, efficient, getting that out the way so you can focus on being creative. That's what that looks like. Um, from there, we're gonna continue to expand into new areas. I think it's very well known we're now focusing more into the advertising space, um, expanding into enterprise. Um, and I think this is about our brand mission of really facilitating people to build in a way that drives better outcomes and more creativity.

Speaker 1: It's been a lot of conversations. You used the phrase earlier of, of outcome, you know, even out- outcome-based pricing as well as the focusing on the outcome itself. Big conversations around sort of the importance of speed. You know, you mentioned it again in sort of operational efficiency. You know, kind of what do you see as being kind of the really big kind of future kind of competitive advantages for the brands of tomorrow?

Speaker 2: Effectiveness over efficiency. Um, efficiency, whilst we always have to keep an eye on this, I think an, an obsession with, with efficiency in any context, the advertising you do, even inside the AI industry, I think is the challenge at the moment because it tends to result in making a business smaller, in my opinion. Um, most of that dialogue is built around this idea of efficiency. Um, it's easier to measure how many hours do we save, um, how much more can you produce in that sense. I think effectiveness is that next stage. What are we actually producing with these things? What are we actually delivering? Uh, whether it be volume response or profitability, I think that's what the next stage really looks like here. Um, and you can see this, uh, been already across the AI industry, a shift away from pure efficiency to what is it that we're actually empowering and enabling. That's the important part, and that's where I think we're gonna see more growth across not just the industry, but across multiple industries.

Speaker 1: Calling this next chapter AI and the Future of Creativity, um, can't, you know, move, uh, a meter in Cannes without hearing conversations about AI, right? It's just, um, you as Canva, you've, you've kind of put AI-powered creative tools into the hands of millions around the world. Um, first of all, kind of what have you learned from that?

Speaker 2: What have we learned? Well, I think first we've learned that AI is A very broad thing to implement. Um, and I think from that work, I think the big learnings are, is focusing on being able to unlock real outcomes. Re- like, how do we drive the outcome that people really want as easily as possible? Um, I think the biggest learning probably built around this is this idea that like you deal with an LLM, you're multi-shotting. You're starting with a starting point, and you're having to reiterate around this. Um, I think the big learning is the tools that work first time are the tools that are going to really drive those, the, the real growth for not just our business, but for others. And I think that's probably the big shift for us is making this intuitive, meaning that you're not focusing on the tool, you're focusing on the outcome itself. Um, we have a s- a product called Magic Layers, which I think is a great example of this. It does what it says on the tin. Allows you to decompose an image that comes out of an any, an LLM or even any other image, and move those things around without having to continuously go round and round. That in and of itself, I think is a really good example of it. It means you don't have to go through this stochastic parrot process. You get the output that you want with a click of a button.

Speaker 1: I love it. I'm having flashbacks on when that launched-

Speaker 2: Yes

Speaker 1: ... in a much more, uh, kind of trivial way with Photoshop and, uh, so I, I lo- I love how you've taken it to a whole new another level. Um, as everyone kind of, I suppose, you know, gains access and, you know, following the doc- democratization kind of theme, you know, to the same tools, where does competitive advantage come from?

Speaker 2: I think competitive advantage comes from what you say, um, more than what you're producing. Um, like creative is arguably infinitely reproducible now. You can get this from many, many sources. I think the true advantage is gonna come down to the quality of what, of what you're producing and the message that you're actually delivering. Uh, like we can see this across the content industry as a whole. We're seeing a bifurcation. Um, you have large amounts of creative being developed or content being developed for the platforms on one side. The other is growth of these core human-based entertainment platforms and creative platforms. Sport marketing as, as an example, and sponsorship is growing rapidly. Um, and so I think that really shows where the direction here, where competitive a- advantage comes from, which is telling human stories in a way that are actually meaningful, focusing on the quality of what you're doing rather than the volume of what you're doing.

Speaker 1: And what parts of the process in Canva benefit the most from sort of AI, and what parts kind of remain fundamentally human?

Speaker 2: So we, we approach all AI within Canva with this concept of human insight. And so where we really see the benefits is helping to start and also helping to solve problems which are necessary blockers here. Um, the blank page bias in behavioral science is a good example of this. Um, I'm sure everyone's experienced this feeling. I've got to write a presentation. You fire up whatever it is you're building that in, and you start with staring at that blank page. Where do I start? I think we're seeing AI is a great tool to help solve that starting point, but beyond that, it's about using it to help get the tool out of the way of yourself. Um, we fundamentally believe that AI should not replace a person. It should help improve what they're trying to do, or that the speed, efficiency thinking. Um, and I think that's really that focus there is how do we ensure that the product itself and AI is helping empower people to deliver what they want better rather than removing them entirely from the process? Uh, like I tend to think a lot about the Betty Crocker egg example. Um, for those who aren't familiar, when Betty Crocker first released its brownie mix or cook cookie mix that you just added water, technological marvel, failed to sell. Um, they reformulated it so you added an egg. All of a sudden it became one of the best-selling FMCG products of all time. That's because people fundamentally care about things they create. I think that philosophy is core to how we think about AI. We want to empower people to feel that they are still building those things and making those things, just doing it in a way which feels more inspirational, almost like magic rather than, than being removed entirely.

Speaker 1: Let's talk briefly about sort of building brands in the AI area- era. So, you know, to your point around kind of, you know, effectiveness, you know, the last decade some people might say has been focused very much on kind of performance, you know, kind of almost in some ways a race to the bottom in a sense, right? But, you know, I hope that there seems to be a kind of growing appreciation, I'm getting it from you, that kind of once again maybe kind of creativity and brand building is coming into the mix. Are we seeing that shift?

Speaker 2: I think it's a battle that's always being fought.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: But the one thing I can say from experience of working in the AI space, both how we use these tools and also how we market it, is that the principles are almost all the same, just the context has changed. Um, those c- core principles around broad reach, creativity, or distinct brand assets, these things really still matter. Um, the risk, I think, that we're s- experiencing is the, these circuit, these new tools, um, is compounding the problem around efficiency. Um, but I would say with Canva in and of itself is very focused on that approach. We intend to build a long-term business and a business that matters and a brand that matters, and that's built around creativity and that consistency. And I think that's kind of the core to this. Um, that kind of circles back to your original, your last question-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... around where this advantage comes from. Doesn't matter how you make the products or how do you make the creative, it's the quality of it. And I'm starting to believe that I read a great quote from a researcher that said, "People don't care how you made it. They care that it works, or they care that it connects with them." And I think that's the key.

Speaker 1: We're surrounded by, um, winners at Cannes right now. Um, what for you is, is, you know, is, is an exemplar of kind of brands doing this really well? What's blown you away, that's inspired you?

Speaker 2: What's blown away and inspired me?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Um, so I'm not sure if it actually is, has an entry here.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 2: But one of my favorite more recent ads is the Lawgora AI ad. Um, for those who don't know, Lawgora is a UK-based AI legal platform. And the campaign itself was built around Jude Law as the new face of Law. Fundamentally entertaining. Um, it puts emotion and connection at the core of it. It's a 60-second spot that you actually want to watch. I think that to me is what modern good marketing looks like, communicating a very technical product in a way which con- connects. It's B2B, but it's BTC coded. And I think that's something that's also missed as well, is that regardless of the context, we're still B2P. We're still business to people. Your business decision maker is still a person at the end of the day, and ads that connect in that way I think are fundamentally powerful.

Speaker 1: What's the one piece of advice you'd give a CMO trying to navigate this new environment?

Speaker 2: Uh, as I said earlier, the principles are all still the same.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: The foundations are still there. You just- we just have to learn to adapt to the new tools, um, really the new pace of things. The, the brands that'll win are the ones who aren't gonna get distracted by the new shiny things. The brands that win are the ones who are going to, as I said, build emotional connection with their audiences, with their consumers, build that mental availability, and focus on building products that actually drive outcomes that people want. Um, the final one probably would be ensuring that your product is focused around your consumer. Um, I tend to think as well a lot about this concept of jank space. Jank space is this idea if you've ever felt like every product is so optimized, it almost feels like it doesn't want to be there. I think that's being caused by people losing sight of the fact that we're actually building products for people, and I think those are the two things, focusing on the product for the people and communicating in a way which is emotionally connecting.

Speaker 1: Um, the world's changing so fast. Thinking about the next generation, you know, maybe going back to Rory when he was in banking, um, kind of what skills, you know, would you be kind of recommending that anyone learns today, um, and what skills would you let slide?

Speaker 2: I think expertise is probably the thing still, and I think that bu- it's built around passion. Um, I fundamentally believe and my biggest learning from my career is being T-shaped. Um, a bit of advice I gave to people in one of my old teams was, "Your job is to ensure that you're the second-best opinion on anything in the room. That makes you the most valuable." Overspecialization I think is dead, but generalization itself, uh, as a focus is also a dead edge. You, you build general teams, you get general work. And so I think ensuring that you focus on the actual craft itself, um, these things are evolving in many ways. Uh, but I was fortunate enough where the advent of machine learning and data science and I guess modern marketing science and brand building, but we're seeing new versions of this now. Um, understanding how to communicate to consumers in ways which are now fundamentally different to what they were ten, fifteen, twenty years ago is probably a good one here. Um, the final one is always be learning. Um, learning is not for when you're young. It's not for when you're at university. Um, some of the stuff that I do now I learned really in the last two, three years. Um, and I think a risk that people, um, a, a trap that people risk falling into is feeling that they've learned everything that there is. There's always something new, and that comes from the most unexpected of places. But it's what you're reading, what you're studying, the clients you work with, your colleagues, the people above you, the people below you. That's probably the biggest recommendation and the biggest learning I've had.

Speaker 1: Learn how to learn, Rory.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: Thanks very much for an amazing conversation.

Speaker 2: Thanks. Thanks for having me.