Episode 163 · Season 7 · ·
The Borrowed Voice
Scott Sutton, Chief Executive Officer of Later, on why creators now run across the whole marketing funnel and why winning in answer engines means being the one or two sources a model cites, not page two of search.
Scott Sutton, Chief Executive Officer, Later. In conversation with John Horsley.
The Borrowed Voice
0:0043:00From automotive factories in Mexico to taking ZoomInfo public and now leading Later, Scott Sutton has built a career on solving complex process problems. In this episode he argues that the creator economy has permeated the entire marketing stack, and that AI answer engines are rewriting how brands get found and bought.
Sutton grew up in automotive, learning lean and manufacturing processes, and credits early social media, the early days of YouTube in particular, for the access to information he could not find anywhere else. He later did a stint at ZoomInfo, which by his account he helped take public, before a former colleague pointed him towards a company doing great things in the creator space. He saw the opportunity in the market and joined Later as Chief Executive Officer. When he arrived he found a business selling software licences into agencies and large brands, and reframed the question around where the money was really going. His answer: roughly 30 billion dollars of ad spend already flowing through the creator economy, which he says is slated to reach 100 billion dollars by 2030, so the company pivoted to running ad dollars through its platform.
In this conversation with host John Horsley, Sutton argues that creators have permeated the entire marketing stack, from top of funnel celebrity work to bottom of funnel commerce, because they can be human and business at once in a way traditional brands cannot. He makes the case that scripted corporate marketing needs to go away, that B2B is the furthest behind on humanising itself, and that product quality now sits inside a virtuous cycle where bad products are found out fast. He is sharpest on AI search, separating generative engine optimization from answer engine optimization, and warning that where search gave you a page of results, a model returns one or two, so creator content has to be the cited source, especially for new products with no training data. Be the one or two, never page two.
Beyond authenticity, why are brands collaborating with creators at this scale?
“Creators are really cool in the fact that they can be human and they can be business.”
I think of authenticity as a relationship with an audience built on common ground. If you personify most businesses they only talk about themselves, their finances, their investors. Creators are really cool in the fact that they can be human and they can be business. They can talk about feelings and emotion, and they can talk about the bottom line. A creator can take a stance an older brand cannot, so the brand gets to borrow the voice of the creator to connect in a way it cannot say itself.
Does the old scripted brief still make sense?
“I just think that whole paradigm of highly scripted corporate marketing needs to go away.”
I just think that whole paradigm of highly scripted corporate marketing needs to go away. It needs to be replaced by great storytelling, connection and resonance. The best ads move you, create an emotion, make you laugh. When have you ever been inspired by the five talking points of a product marketer? A car website sells the emotion, the freedom, the wind through your hair, not the torque of the lug nuts. Marketers need to bring out that emotion and work with creators to do it.
How do you think about brand building with AI answer engines?
“And so you need to be one or two always, whereas before a lot of people settled for page one, page two.”
There is GEO, the overall sentiment a model holds about a brand across the world's data, and AEO, the referenced pages a model pulls for a specific product. For AEO, creators are most often what comes up, YouTube transcripts, Reddit, Substack. We focus on creator-based AEO for specific products, especially new to market, because if I launch a new product there is no training data about it, so I need to be the exact source found. Google gives you a page of ten to twenty. ChatGPT gives you one, maybe two, so you need to be one or two always, whereas before people settled for page one or two.
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Partner with Us →Have your say.Add your voice to the conversation.
Voices is where senior practitioners share what they're seeing, what they believe and what they'd change.
Become a Voice →Is product quality being forced up by all of this?
“There's actually this, like, virtuous cycle happening where products are forced to get better or the brand dollars run out, creators don't wanna work with them, and sales aren't had.”
Between e-commerce, creator content and ratings and reviews, product quality is very well understood, which forces brands to improve. A channel like Vacuum Wars tests 37 robot vacuums in an unbiased way, which requires you not to be a lazy legacy brand. You can make creator content, but the product has to stand up. There is a virtuous cycle where products are forced to get better or the brand dollars run out, creators do not want to work with them, and sales are not had. I think we are in the greatest period of product quality that has ever existed, and if products are bad it does not take long for the world to find out.
What advice would you give a young person starting out?
“Many people run away from challenging situations. They run away from problems. You should run headlong into them.”
I have a theory I call the reverse problem funnel: problems escalate up through layers, so by the time they reach me they are distilled, and you need to have seen a lot of problems to be senior. Many people run away from challenging situations. They run away from problems. You should run headlong into them. If you build a reputation for solving the worst challenges you become bomb-proof. People think a great company has no problems, but every business that is growing quickly is a bit of controlled chaos, and when you solve one bottleneck another emerges.
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Lightly edited for readability
Speaker 1: Welcome to Business Marketing. My name's John Horsley, I'm the host of the show today. I've got the absolute pleasure of being joined by Scott Sutton, who is the CEO at Later. Welcome to the show, Scott.
Speaker 2: Awesome, John. Thank you for having, uh, having Later and my, myself on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Oh, you're more than welcome. Hey, let's, uh, let's start here. So this is obviously a huge industry. There's so many facets to it. What was it, and, and when... I, I guess when, when did it kind of grab your attention? How did you get involved in this industry in the first place?
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's, it's... I've loved social media for a long time. I feel like I learned a ton of what I know on social, early days of YouTube, and just the access to information that wasn't available to audiences and communities that weren't readily accessible via kinda traditional means, and the most up-to-date information was always on social. So I mean, I grew up in automotive, and when I wanted to learn about lean or manufacturing processes or, you know, how were customers experiencing our vehicles, I went to social 'cause it's there, and it was hard to find anywhere else. And, and so then as I developed, I, I, I did a stint at ZoomInfo, took them public, and I was looking for my next challenge, and one of my former colleagues, he's like, "I'm at this amazing company, and they're really doing great things in the creator space. Uh, you should come take a look." And I instantly saw the opportunity in market, saw the opportunity with our customers and kinda what the business had to offer and, and I had to join.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Is there things that you've learned from... I mean, you touched a- talked about, uh, ZoomInfo-
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: ... but, you know, having a, a slightly different viewpoint that you've brought forward with you into the world of creator?
Speaker 2: 100%. Uh, my colleagues never stop hearing about automotive factories and, and lean, and I think it's funny because oftentimes we think, oh, being in a factory in Mexico producing semi-trucks, there's nothing to be applied in creator. But I actually think my gift is not any one particular industry, it's working with people, process, and technology to solve complex process problems.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And delivering amazing results in influencer marketing is a really complicated sequence of process steps that require data, human interaction, uh, different tools, and so I think I bring that outside perspective and help them maybe who are in it so deeply every day view it from a different lens. And so i- I think that that's definitely helped us out.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, you know, obviously over recent years, the creator economy, as it were, has exploded. What does that look like in the US? I mean, what, you know, what's the value of the creator economy at this point in time? Just wanna put it in perspective for the listeners.
Speaker 2: It's huge, and, and that was the biggest finding when I joined. There was a lot of software as a service companies selling licenses, and I, I looked back at that market and I said, "What's my addressable market for software?" And it's really selling to agencies or selling to very large brands. Took a step back and said, "Where is this money actually being spent?" And there are $30 billion worth of ad spend already being spent in the creator economy. That's slated to get to $100 million... or $100 billion-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... by 2030. That's just an immense opportunity. And so we've completely pivoted, and we're running ad dollars through our platform and, and really helping facilitate outcomes with that. That is where the opportunity lies for the market.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And we've seen, you know, huge brand owners, your, your Unilevers, as it were, shift so much of their ad spend to, to influencer as well.
Speaker 2: Oh, 100%. And, and what's interesting is it's not just... It used to just be a channel and a kind of a top-of-funnel play. Creators are permeating CTV ads and linear TV ads. They're in display ads. They're driving commerce at the bottom of the funnel and, and still doing that kind of traditional top-of-funnel celebrity endorsement work.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So it really has permeated the entire marketing stack.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Outside of, you know, authenticity, as it were, which actually I f- I find it overused and I don't believe that things are particularly authentic-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... why is it that brands are collaborating at this kind of scale now with, um, with creators?
Speaker 2: I think there are a few different phenomena that allow this to be possible, and, and I do think this... I think this authenticity, it's really a relationship with an audience.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: And the reason why that relationship exists is because of that authenticity or the connection, the common ground. Um, what's really interesting, I, I think about businesses as people, and i- if you, if you kind of create that personification, they're only interested in work, they only talk about themselves, they only talk about kind of boring stuff, their, their financer, their investors. Creators are really cool in the fact that they can be human and they can be business.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: They can talk about feelings and emotion, and they can talk about the bottom line.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: And that allows them to connect with an audience to promote something, but then also take a stance that a traditional older brand can't take a stance on a lot of topics because why is McDonald's getting involved in X? Why is Southwest Airlines getting involved in Y?
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Whereas a creator, if their audience knows them to be for a certain cause, it's very on brand for them to represent that. And so what I think it allows the brand to do is, is basically borrow the voice of the creator and borrow that viewpoint for a moment or a long period of time to help and connect with that audience in a meaningfully different way that they can't say themselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you feel, I'm not sure loss of control is the right word, but, um, do you feel that brands are starting to feel more comfortable with putting their brand in the hands of a creator-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... um, versus maybe sort of four, five years back?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's, it's like the coalescing of a few different phenomena. One, creators are just a lot more professional in knowing how to deal with brands-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... and manage their own personal brand such that it is brand safe to work with brands. And, and that sounds like kind of a interesting recursive loop, but- Brands understand, or creators as brands understand that if they're saying certain things or promoting certain types of content, it's going to, to reflect poorly on all of their partners that they work with. I also think that brands have kind of loosened up some of these crazy restrictions of you must be on brand, must say the talking points-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... in order to tell a better story. Even with their own brand on organic social, they're willing to take a little bit more risk, be more creative, have a little bit more personality, and so those things are converging to allow a little bit more freedom in the space.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I agree with that. So that, I mean, that, that kind of relates to your earlier comment as well, um, about the creator knowing their audience. Whereas I'm guessing in the past, brands were scared of, of losing control.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and the other piece that you talked to is n-no one really cares if you're gonna just talk about yourselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So, uh, I'm guessing that the, the briefs of the past, they kind of almost wanted the credit to talk about themselves in, in their language that no one really cares about.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I mean, I just think that whole paradigm of highly scripted corporate marketing needs to go away.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It needs to be replaced by really great storytelling, connection, resonance. I think about the best ads, and they move you. They, they create an emotion, a question-
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: They make you laugh. It's not, when have you ever been inspired by the five talking points of a product marketer? You know, it's like, "We have 17 features and three buttons that allow you to create 9,000 configurations."
Speaker 1: No one gives a fuck, right.
Speaker 2: No one cares.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like, I use your product for one thing-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... and it makes me really happy when I do it. Invoke that emotion. It, it's the same reason I talk a lot about, like, a car-ordering website. How do they sell a car? It's the emotion, it's the freedom, it's the wind through your hair. It's not the torque of the lug nuts and how well the w- the frame is welded together. And so I think marketers need to think about bringing that emotion out, that storytelling, that creativity, and working with creators to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that, uh, AI is, is kind of fueling the creator economy in terms of growth, uh, and brand investment?
Speaker 2: Um, I think it's making a lot of things more efficient. So I, I think about AI maybe in a couple different frames. One is it is a tool of accelerating business process. So under the hood, we're using AI to do brand safety vetting, um, creator matching, to predict content performance and outcomes, and then you have the actual content generation editing, um, and you see a lot of great tools that are now allowing for content modification, and then you go the full, full send and you have now, um, digital avatar-type creators, and I, I think that's very emergent. We'll see how that plays out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say this. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But, um, even in that world, it's funny 'cause a lot of people are like, "Are AI creators the death of your business?" And I go, "Someone created that character, controls that account, and thus I contract them-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... to create a piece of content with their AI creator to work with a brand."
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think not all content is this human-to-human content. Content is entertainment.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: And do we care that Aladdin wasn't a real person, or Jasmine? No, but I could work with Disney theoretically to have Jasmine hold-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... a jar of-
Speaker 1: Mickey Mouse
Speaker 2: ... whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Whatever, yeah. Of course.
Speaker 2: A- and so I think it's just a different form of brand partnership, collaboration, and entertainment.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. I, I was also thinking about it from the point of view of, I guess, a renaissance of storytelling-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... as well from, from brands. Um, and I feel that that's been driven by, you know, the LLMs and the, the raising of, well, the, the, uh, proliferation, probably a better word, of, of AI. Um, the fact that, uh, people are obviously using, I, I'm gonna call them answer engines-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... to try to seek files and find information, and the creator's content, I believe, is well optimized to, uh, those forms of searches.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Um, and I also believe that there is a swing at this point in time to greater investment in brand building-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... so that you're memorable and that you are front of mind when a consumer or a business consumer starts to create that shortlist. You're already there and you- you're kind of top of list.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I, I think it's re- it's really interesting in terms of AI discovery. So there's GEO and AEO, and when you think about GEO, it's generative engine optimization.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: I think about that in terms of how do I feel about this brand? What is the overarching sentiment? 'Cause what generative engine optimization is, it's basically when the model is trained on the world's data, what is kind of the, the, the perception and the, the ethos, the, the stance of the brand worldwide? So, like, if I were to ask ChatGPT, "What is Nike?" It's going to say a legendary brand founded by Phil Knight and Bill Bowerman that exudes, like, performance, and it's not calling on an individual website for that. It, it's amassing this kind of communal understanding of Nike.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: And that's where this brand building is similar to older brand building in that it's the amount of references. It's, it's what is said in those references. Then there's this more specific lane of AEO, the anchi- uh, the answer engine optimization. So on that one, when I'm asking about a specific product that I wanna buy in moment, let's say an Air Force 1, it might not have the details on Air Force 1, so it's going to pull a reference page, come back, and tell me the best shoe for you to buy is an Air Force 1. That's a referenced page, and creators are most often coming up. It's YouTube transcripts. It's Reddit, um, Substack pages. Uh, the, the only more cited source is, uh- Like, health pages
Speaker 1: Sure
Speaker 2: ... because everyone's asking it
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah
Speaker 2: But those are very specific and, and those are more controllable, 'cause this whole dearth of information on the internet is very hard to move. But I can be the most referenced, cited piece of content, um, and then that's gonna drive sales. So what we're focused on is a creator-based AEO offering that really allows us to pinpoint specific products, especially new to market.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: Because if I launch a new product, there's no training data about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I need to be the exact website that's found. And the difference may be with Google Search, Google Search is giving you a page of 10 to 20.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: ChatGPT gives you one-
Speaker 1: Hmm
Speaker 2: ... maybe two back. And so you need to be one or two always, whereas before a lot of people settled for page one, page two.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that, that's fantastic, actually.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That, that's exactly what I was thinking in terms of where we might be going.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, and, and thanks for explaining the, the difference between GEO and AEO and, and how you fit into that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, how educated are brands a- a- a- around that challenge at this point in time? Or do you feel that you're constantly educating them because you're kind of at the vanguard, as it were?
Speaker 2: I, I think everyone knows that it's important but doesn't quite know what to do with it.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: And, and what's really interesting is we, you know, so many marketers get interviewed and they say, "Okay, how many of your sales are coming from the LLMs?" And almost universally, they say it's growing at, like, north of 100%. It's still small. We know it's important, but we don't quite know how to guide it and move it.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: And so what we're doing is helping them unpack, okay, what are the sources being pulled? We have a variety of polling technologies that say, okay, where do you rank today?
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: What s- sources are being cited? And then we can run specific campaigns to then help source articles that can be cited in reference, and then we can measure the efficacy of that, uh, through ourself and third-party partners that show us how frequently we're coming up as the number one search. So it, it is this... I think where everyone's at is they know it's important, they know it's emergent, it's growing quickly-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... but they don't quite know how to wrap their arms around it, and it's not so big that they're pivoting all their resources, but they, they need to have a strategy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And do they... I'm, I'm guessing they, they must clearly have a, an understanding of the fact that people who are, you know, using an answer engine have got a higher degree of intent in the first place.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's where, um, that's where this purchase behavior at the, at the end of the funnel, we're seeing very real link clicks, very real transactions-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... coming out of the social networks and- Or out of the LLM, excuse me. And, and I think that's where they know it's powerful, they don't quite know what to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It is funny though, 'cause I'm, I make so many of my personal shopping decisions and travel decisions, uh, for instance, I'm, I'm going on a trip to celebrate my wife's birthday. The entire thing, I plan the entire itinerary with the help of chat.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And remarkable suggestions. Every time we go out to, to lunch it knows our preference. We've told it how we, you know, how it's done in the past, and it gets to know you very well. And so I think it's, again, you have to run a great business to be suggested-
Speaker 1: Hmm
Speaker 2: ... but then you can do a lot of things to also... So I would say don't lose sight of the operation and actually running the best business possible, because it's looking for those confirmation points. But then you need to tee up all the information supporting that-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... with your digital footprint.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then do you feel that as part of that journey, people are then going through to the, the creators, I want to avoid the term influencers, yeah, the, the, the creators, um, and getting comfort so that they're understanding more about the product and they're almost playing a level of reinsurance, uh, yeah, reassurance within that customer journey?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I, oftentimes I'll go and I'll click the cited sources of, "Hey, this, this restaurant is viewed as the number one at this product," and it'll give a source, and I'll go watch the YouTube video or I'll go see the piece of content. And for me, one, there's creator discovery in that.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: If I really like shoes, for instance, and I, I go and I see that this was a recommended shoe and there's a cited piece of content, I'm like, "Maybe this person has other suggestions," or, "This content that it's referencing can give me more color. I'll, I'll go dive into that content." So I think for creators, there is a benefit to putting out this type of content for your own kind of audience discovery and, and let's say topical thought leadership-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... on a, on a certain topic.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And are you seeing more of a rise in terms of B2B creators as well?
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, B2B is exploding. It's-
Speaker 1: Hmm
Speaker 2: ... I mean, I, I'm a B2B professional, and I'm constantly researching information on the internet. I'm trying to find different tools and, and so I would say th- this notion that, one, creators are just on social media, and two, that executives aren't on social media, like-
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy
Speaker 2: ... "Oh, CEOs are not on Instagram," you might not think so, but we definitely are. I think the why we're there and where we are might need some nuance. Like-
Speaker 1: Hmm
Speaker 2: ... when I'm in learning thought discovery mode, I'm most often on YouTube actually. If I'm on TikTok, I'm probably not looking for, like, lean manufacturing guidance.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: I'm looking to be entertained. And so I think you have to find a way on TikTok to entertain me as a brand, to then pull me into more educational content that, that is more Reddit, Substack, YouTube. And so I think it's right place, right time. I- Instagram to me is more networking-
Speaker 1: Hmm
Speaker 2: ... with a little bit of entertainment. TikTok is almost pure entertainment. YouTube is either long-form entertainment or education for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I, I think it's just different- Different sub channel, different types of creators, and even within creators, like Gary Vee is a great example. His content across the different channels is wildly different based on the specificity of the audience he's trying to hit and for what goal.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so no, I've been thinking about B2B quite a bit. Um, I do exactly the same as well. I, I use YouTube to, um, to learn, to understand how to use something better or kind of sharpen myself up.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and actually also maybe to inform a, a relatively high-value purchase from time to time as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, that could be a piece of music gear or something else, and we'll see when someone using it, or maybe multiple people using it, what they're actually getting out of it and, and how they're putting it into practice. Um, we talked about brands being boring at times, um, certainly B2Bs, and they just talk about features and functions and shit no one really cares about.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, the, in the past, they've kind of all looked the same and very vanilla. They've got the same white paper, um, that again, you know, is, is a little bit boring. They struggle to differentiate themselves and to have a kind of a true brand voice.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, although I believe that there is a bit of a shift at this point in time, uh, that, uh, B2Bs are starting to develop a little bit more of a personality. Not all of them-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... but some. Uh, and you can see the ones that are, so I'm thinking of people like Workday, for instance, is, is probably a good example-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... start really breaking through and, and huge- creating this huge gulf between themselves and, and the, the competitor pack.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I, I think, I mean, it's remarkable when, when B2B companies lean into a strategy of, of personalization. I think this is why you're seeing more executive personal brands. You're seeing employees as creators. We get- we're getting now pulled into employee creator programs-
Speaker 1: Okay
Speaker 2: ... which is, which is really amazing 'cause it's now creating a new set of creators as a s- kind of side hustle. They're able to manage their own personal brand, and it gives them-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... uh, ability to elevate their own career by having this kind of thought leader perspective while promoting the company they're working for. It's interesting, too, 'cause I, I don't think it's-- I, I think we talk a lot about B2B opening up and showing its personality, but it's actually true of B2C companies as well.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So, like, the NFL, um, we do a lot of work with the NFL, and, and Tim Ellis, when he joined as CMO of the NFL, he started the Helmets Off program, and it was really about getting to know the players as individuals, as people, as human beings, what are their interests and what are their thoughts.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: And I don't think a lot of people really flagged that that was happening, but we now know all the players, their personalities. You think about the Netflix shows where we're getting the behind-the-scenes of the quarterbacks, and they're humanizing... And if you think about it in B2B terms, the NFL could just be the stats, the plays, the coach, the results, but now we're brought into the humanity. We're b- brought into the storytelling. And if, if you see the, the Champions ad where little, little kids are talking about their hopes and dreams and sport as a vehicle for success, it, it transcends the business offering. And so I think all brands, B2C, B2B, can learn to humanize their business, to connect-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... to channel universal truths of, like, aspiration and hopes and dreams and fulfillment in their content a- and humor and entertainment and storytelling. So I don't think it's just a B2B trend-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... but I think B2B is the furthest behind.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the idea of humanization. I think that's a really great word to use, um, 'cause that's what, at the end of the day, what you're gonna connect to in terms of what's being put out there-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... and so on, and that entire process of, of creation as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, rather than, hey, look, we're obviously in the world of machines, um, rather than pure machine, uh, is, is kind of how I look at the idea of-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... sort of humanization of things. Um, what about brands as utility as well? Do you feel that brands are starting to be- become more of a utility for people in their daily lives?
Speaker 2: Um, unpack that. What do you, what, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: So being useful, being more useful than they have in the past in terms of how they show up and how they're presenting themselves, and perhaps they're doing that in, in collaboration with the creators.
Speaker 2: I, I think so. I think a really interesting phenomena of e-commerce, the explosion of, of creator and brand content, and then this new ratings and reviews paradigm-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... um, and especially bottom-of-funnel, not, versus top-of-funnel. Uh, we live in a world where, like, product quality and, and brand efficacy are very well understood and known, and it's forcing brands to actually improve operations and products if they would like to, um, to survive and thrive. Uh, there's a really interesting s- uh, creator channel, and this is very niche, uh, but on YouTube, it's called Vacuum Wars, and they take all of the vacuums in market, and they go out and they test in, like, a completely unbiased way, 37 robot vacuums or handhelds across eight different dimensions of usability and battery life and mopping and vacuuming and the dirt test and the, the dust test. And-
Speaker 2: And it, it's amazing though because it requires you to not just be this lazy legacy brand, a- and I think there's more disruption in that. And so you can create creator content and put it out into the world, but the product also has to stand up.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so I think that I- I'm really proud of living in this more meritocracy- -type environment where we actually have to provide great services and great facts. Yes, creators get the word out, but creators wanna stand behind great products.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Customers wanna use great products, and I think it, the byproduct is there's actually this, like, virtuous cycle happening where products are forced to get better or the brand dollars run out, creators don't wanna work with them, and sales aren't had.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And, and so I, I think we're in kind of the greatest period of product quality that has ever existed. Um, others might disagree-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... but if, if products are bad, it, it's, it doesn't take long for the world to find out.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I, I, I hundred-- I, I agree 100%, and, uh, it's extremely hard to build a reputation, really easy to lose it, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You can lose your reputation overnight because you've put out something that's duff, and yeah, I, I, I agree in terms of there has been a race to the top.
Speaker 2: I, I think a company who's nailed it both on the creative social side and the product quality and innovation, talk about, like, a Shark Ninja. They're s- going viral and selling their products out the, before it launches.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And they're doing these via these very viral TikTok, you know, TikTok Live, TikTok Shop moments, and they're doing incredible numbers. And they, they've created this brand persona that's elevated. They're hip, they're cool, they leverage all the right creators, and the product innovation, the product quality is very high.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: And so I think that's a great example of this merging of we're a brand, we have personality, we understand the game, we work with great creators, and we make great products.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Have you got any other examples? So I'm thinking, you know, there's an end-to-end process, and you're clearly involved with a-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... big part of that, um, of a brand that's been successful and why. So they're perhaps this attitude all at the start going f- all the way through to an outcome.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's funny. Um, I use this example, um, there's these LOLA blankets, and they're like m-
Speaker 1: Yeah. I even know of them.
Speaker 2: They're am- amazing products.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And they were kind of a born-on-social brand.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: And they worked with top creators to make custom colorways. I think one of the things too is we've gotten more into bottom-of-funnel commerce work- working with creators. When you're doing top of funnel, the stats are very predictable. I'm gonna pay you, I know you get about this many views. Bottom of funnel requires me to understand consumer intent and behavior, the right, have you already purchased it? What's the right season? What's the right pricing and promotion? Um, all of these things have to be true, and I think LOLA really nailed creating this kind of scarcity of these certain colorways that are season-specific-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... working with highly in-demand creators, and the product is a phenomenal product. And so I think they, they're another company that has really gone end to end in creating great products, creating this, like, scarcity, creating this hype and, and vibe, working with creators to help promote, and then using discounting and, and different promotional levers to really drive this, like, fervent demand for their product. And now they have dog beds. I've got a million LOLA blankets at home. We've got dog beds my, my dogs sleep on. My kids love them. They're now, like, a fixture in our household, and it was suggested by a creator who I know well. We bought at the right time, and it, and it-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... it's just this interesting now customer journey I've been on with them that, that I think they've really nailed.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've clearly heard of them, uh, probably through my wife-
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: ... through socials and so on.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, and I know I've seen, uh, I, I know I've seen some of their inf- influencers on social stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's a lot. There's, like, Dollar Shave Club.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: There's, uh, Thursday Boot Company, Cuts, Built, all of these brands. Um, Hey Dude, a- also an amazing brand that's found a ton of success on, uh, on social. It's kind of these social-first. I think the playbook has shifted though, 'cause a lot of those brands, they leverage social ads-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... that were just product imagery, and now they're working with creators. Uh, and I think there was this just, like, blowing of budget before with kind of medium into low-intent ads.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now creators are creating these much more cost-effective-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... ads, and it's a combination of organic posts with boosting behind it versus just a pure play paid-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... paid game.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, it is a commonality between those businesses.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think what makes a really good product in that frame is that it's used by most of the population or a demographic that's easily targeted online.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So you think about LOLA, anyone can use a blanket. Uh, if you think about, uh, Hey Dude or Thursday Boot, most men wear, you know, wear shoes and would wear a boot. Um, it can be purchased online.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It be mass manufactured, and is, is kind of readily measured and available.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think, like, cars are rarely very challenging. You have the whole dealers that are involved. It's a once every multi-year purchase.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Something like a Dollar Shave Club too is it's a repetitive purchase. So you're getting people where the barriers to switch are very low. It's a medium-priced product. They're willing to try something new. Those are the best types of products because if I have... Like, think about a bank. How often do you switch a bank? Very infrequently, and so it's really hard. So there's more, more you would just want awareness-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... so that when someone goes to get a loan or goes to sign up for a bank, they have you in mind versus these more everyday purchases.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Banks surprise me sometimes though. So I've, I've-- Hell, I'm thinking back to the '80s. I'm an old dude.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And, uh, banks used to do stuff for kids. You, you-- They would encourage you to save. You'd get ex- you know, pig- piggy bank, save a bit more, you get something else, and so on. And they, they, what they were doing was obviously gamifying the process-
Speaker 2: Yep
Speaker 1: ... um, and building loyalty, yeah, from the point where you're a child. And people don't really change bank. They'll sign up-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... and they'll stick with it for life, uh, or certainly 20, 30 years plus.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um- And what I'm not seeing, and I might be wrong, um, perhaps it's the challenger banks that, you know, are just pure plays. Uh, but I, what I'm not seeing is banks out there targeting a, a younger community as it were. Uh, or perhaps they are doing that through, uh, younger creators.
Speaker 2: They, they're out there. So I think SoFi is, they're a client of ours. They're, they're really, really great at partnering with creators to do creative content. They partnered with David Dobrik and a lot of others in sponsoring these, like, big giveaways. And, and again, I think it's a lot of this top-of-funnel, 'cause if I'm hitting an audience who's in high school or college, they might not have made that lifelong decision yet, whereas, you know, if I'm 45, I probably am fairly well set up, probably have a mortgage, probably have everything more or less locked in. I think where there's also a lot of dynamic movement is, is in the credit card space. These, like, travel rewards credit cards or the AmExs, where those decisions people often make multiple purchases not tied into any one given provider, and there's a lot more feature, benefit, and product development that goes into that.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Um, and then that's a wedge in, 'cause if I can get you as a client and you really love my experience, you may move the rest of your banking over to my experience, um, or, or work more with me. So I think there, there is opportunity to innovate. Um, I do, I do see in, in Asia and other markets there's a lot more innovative, like Ant Financial and others that are doing, like, microlending and, like, almost re-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... recreating their own credit markets-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... which is super interesting.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Uh, that, that hasn't- I haven't seen that in the same way in the US.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, but there are breakthroughs, you know, Venmo, PayPal, kind of the Zelles found a, a lane, and, and that's a wedge in. But, um, yeah, I do think some of the banks ... SoFi is one of the best, I think, in my opinion, in, in kind of captivating the younger market through social.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But-
Speaker 1: Cool. Um, I'm gonna ask you a few more questions.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1: So advice that you might provide to a, a business or a brand looking to perhaps go their first f- sort of, uh, foray, as it were, into, into the world of, of working with a creator or perhaps a, a group of creators.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, um, I think what's cool, when, when influencer marketing first started, we, we had this three-question framework-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... and it was like, "Do you believe in influencer marketing?" And then it's like, "Do you need a partner?" And then, "Are we the right partner?" Largely the question actually to number one, everyone knows they need to work with creators, and so it's, it's just kind of the how. And so what I would say is, is generally for brands they need to get educated and have some kind of partner that helps them walk through, 'cause i- in- influencer isn't just, you know, I, I find John and I, I pay John a couple bucks and I hope for the best. There's celebrity endorsement, there's macro-influencer, there's kind of creator at scale programs, there's ambassador programs, there's affiliate, and micro and nano. There's UGC plays. All of those should be woven into an overarch- arching marketing strategy. And so I think for any brand it's like, let's determine how we wanna le- like, what are our marketing goals, first-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... in our annual planning? How do we want to accomplish those? Um, is it top-of-funnel? Is it mid-funnel? Is it bottom-of-funnel? And now let's overlay creators into that strategy. For my top-of-funnel I'm gonna do creator-driven content. I'm going to push it through my linear TV, connected TV, and social channels.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna n- I'm then going to have kind of a at scale performance play where I'm going to leverage creator content at scale boosted with social ads and display ads, and then I'm going to start an affiliate ambassador program. So I, I think for me it's start with your overarching marketing goals, your ar- overarching business goals, deconstruct how creators can be useful-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... and then start to allocate budget. And then don't only have a creator create a piece of content, have it be on social and dead. Put it in your ads, put it on your site, leverage it, and you... It's only a few more dollars working with a creator to license that content to use on other channels, and the content performs better than whatever crappy infographic your marketing team put together.
Speaker 1: Actually, that's, that's the point as well. Do you feel that brands are not thinking about rights management in the same way that they, they might do licensing an image or doing something else?
Speaker 2: They're getting more savvy, but for a long time it was like, "No, no, no. That's just creator. That's just social. They post it and then it goes."
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then it evolved to like, "Okay, hold on. Let's have 'em post it and then the ones that do well, let's boost it."
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: The next evolution was, "Okay, the content that does well, let's boost it and let's refactor it into a dedicated ad."
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: "Next step, let's push it to connected TV, display, to billboards, whatever." And now it's like, "Oh, let's actually integrate it on our site."
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: "Let's integrate it into PDP pages." So, like, we have programs where for massive retail I'll generate a quarter million pieces of UGC from creators to be posted on product pages on online marketplaces-
Speaker 1: Mm, mm
Speaker 2: ... because it does better than static imagery. And so there's just these really amazing evolutions that have happened where creators are permeating every ounce of, of, of marketing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Love it. Um, slightly off s- off piece question-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... but, uh, in terms of staying sharp yourself, um, or gaining inspiration, what do you tend to do? Are there resources that, that you'll kind of go to resources?
Speaker 2: I mean, I, I travel probably 45 weeks a year to have conversations like these where I learn. Creator is so dynamic that I feel like- You know, it's not a book off the shelf to read, but, you know, I, I follow all the different newsletters in the space.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: I'm reading The Information, and Ad Age, and Digiday, and Wall Street Journal. Um, and AI is great at aggregating a lot of that information. I, as a, a proof point to my team, I g- I coded in Claude code an entire kind of CEO OS second brain that integrates-
Speaker 2: ... all the content from-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... all of the data that, that's coming into my world, all the news articles. Um, and then I think it's what the moment dictates. Like, if I'm trying to solve a cultural change program around business operations, then I'll go read literature on the world's greatest operators from automotive, and SpaceX, and Tesla, and bring those lessons back.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so I don- I think, like, finding inspiration doesn't need to come from your exact domain, it needs to come from who's the expert on this topic regardless of domain. And then I th- I spend tons of time thinking about these cross-industry analogies and parallels.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It was funny, I was speaking at a conference about, um, the transformation of AI, and they're like, "Well, how do you deal with those stubborn people who don't believe in AI?" And I'm like, "Guys, we saw digital transformation. We saw the advent of the computer."
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: "We saw mobile. Like, change management is par for the course. This is just a new type, and so you need to..." It's the same thing, it's the early adopters.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: It's then the fast followers. It's the long tail, and then the never gonna change.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's like, we need to grab onto those. So I, I think, like, I, I'm a big fan of looking at history and using it as a tool-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... to then understand the future, and I just think, why make the same mistakes that a million people have made before?
Speaker 1: Because people will.
Speaker 2: Yeah. A- and so-
Speaker 1: And business as well
Speaker 2: ... I think the other thing is just people are business.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And if you think anything else, like, the biggest part of my job is hiring, coaching, mentoring, getting the most out of people.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I would say if you're trying to be the next great leader, get really great at working with people, and then hire really, really smart people and listen to them.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Love it.
Speaker 2: Uh, that is, that's my absolute best advice, I think.
Speaker 1: And then, hey, look, on, on the advice tip again. So a young individual, they might be at the start of their career, uh, they might be looking at the world of marketing, media, advertising, tech perhaps. Uh, what advice would you give to a young s- young person, uh, who is at that early stage?
Speaker 2: Um, it's funny, and I, I don't know if you saw, there's a, a f- a funny speech that Jensen Huang gave to s- at the Stanford commencement, and he wa- he, he looked around the crowd and he goes, "I wish all of you suffering." Because it's that, like, suffering and the problems that develop character and experience and understanding. And what's really interesting is, like, I have this theory I call the reverse problem funnel, and, like, as a CEO, when a junior employee has a problem, they go to their boss, and then if they can't solve it, they go to their boss, and such on.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Eight layers of that, you get to me, and I'm just dealing with the most distilled problems, and you need to have seen a lot of problems and know how to solve them by, at the point you're very senior in your career. And so I would just say for younger employees, many people run away from challenging situations. They run away from problems. You should run headlong into them. And if you can create a reputation and a skill set for being the person who can solve the worst challenges, you're gonna become immensely valuable. You're gonna become bomb-proof, and it's ultimately gonna lead to... 'Cause when a problem hits me, I have no one to give that to.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I have mentors and I have others who can help me, but it has to stop with me, and has to be resolved by my team. And so I would just say, like, accelerate that problem experience journey. That becomes a problem-solving journey, and then eventually leads to, to... You know, my whole career I just jumped on problems, and I think now, like, that's what I'm good at, and that's what I know how to do, and it suits me well in my career.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's, it's about showing up and, uh, yeah, and, and kind of just stepping up a bit more, right? And taking responsibility.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just being, being, you know, not easily... Be, be an oak in a storm.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you're like, "Okay, I've seen this. I can deal with it."
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: "I might lose all my branches, but I'm gonna be here and we're gonna, we're gonna see..."
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have been thinking-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... about this at 5:00 AM, but I, I was. So some people see the p- see a problem. Other people confront problems, see the solution.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, and, you know, you, you might say, you know, pessimistic or optimistic or whatever, you know, the half glass empty-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... half full kind of scenario, but the problem solvers seem to be in that half glass, you know, full camp at the same time.
Speaker 2: 100%. A- and I think no m- you know, people have this illusion that a company that's doing great has no problems.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: If you go to inside of OpenAI or Anthropic, it is chaos. They're growing so fast, and there's so many emergent issues. There's ethical issues. Their AI's running off and hacking other companies. They're creating billions and billions of dollars of enterprise value, but it's just chaos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2: And, and, and that's an extreme example, but every business that's growing quickly is a bit of controlled chaos.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: And I think this thought that everything's gonna be just super smooth and poetic, that's not the reality. Growth creates problems. Growth creates hardship, and it moves around, and you constantly have to be dancing around and, and helping to solve that. And, like, theory of constraints and it tells us that when we solve one bottleneck, another bottleneck emerges.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: And that will always be the case, so your, your work will never be done. It just moves to the, the next constraint.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well look, Scott, thanks so much for your time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You've been a wonderful guest today.
Speaker 2: Awesome.
Speaker 1: Um, s- it almost feels like a shame to bring the conversation-
Speaker 1: ... to a close. I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: No, thanks for having me, and, uh, yeah, glad to talk anytime.
Speaker 1: You're welcome.