Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: So I'm delighted to welcome to this episode of The Business of Marketing recorded live here at Cannes Lions, Cindy Gallop. Welcome.
Speaker 2: Thrilled to be here.
Speaker 1: Um, so look, this is a conversation I've been very much looking forward to. This is where we talk about advertising and culture.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: What happens when someone from the top of that industry decides to build a business around one of the subjects it most often mishandles or avoids. You're useful, uh, because you can talk from both sides, mainstream brand building and the long, hard reality of making a taboo business survive. Let's get straight into it. Um, you've had a front row seat in advertising for decades. When did you first start thinking about how hard what our industry normalizes-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: ... not just what it sells?
Speaker 2: Um, I think to, to be frank, um, I was fortunate enough to have an advertising career at agencies and working with people who actually had a, had a very developed sense of what, uh, what creativity can do in some very powerful sociocultural ways. Um, you know, it was, it was absolutely my advertising career that led me to the belief that the future business is doing good and making money simultaneously.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So I think that became, um, first of all-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... you know, um, very much part of a lens with which I viewed our industry-
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... and, and the work we do. And then, you know, um, w- we wield enormous power-
Speaker 1: Yes
Speaker 2: ... as an industry that-
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... a lot of people don't fully realize, because at its absolute best-
Speaker 1: Mm. Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... what we do has the power to transform brands and businesses, um, by transforming attitudes and behavior.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: You know, um, uh, I say to people, you know, given what I do now with my business MakeLoveNotPorn, I have the best possible background for it because I've spent 40 years working in the business of getting people to do things that they originally had no intention of doing, and that is a real skill. And so one of the things that I've always felt and talked about for literally for decades is that we should use that power for good.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And there are so many things we can do-
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... in the normal course of our daily work, um, that don't even require additional effort, but will make a very dramatic difference to society. And I'll, I'll give you just one example. Um, I have for, gosh, you know, 26 years, um, worked with the Ad Council, you know, originally as a member on one of their campaign review committees, and in recent years, I'm one of three CRC chairs together with Susan Cradley and Margaret Johnston-Cooper. Um, anyway, um, at the Ad Council, our, our job as a CRC is to help make the work the best it could possibly be. So we review the work at strategy stage, creative stage, and rough cut, you know, almost finished execution stage. So I remember many years ago, very large, very well-known agency of Shelby&Meerus presented, you know, their Ad Council campaign to us, and it was great. Um, and we all approved it. And then I said to the agency, "There's one last thing I want you to do with the TV script you've just shown us. It's a very small thing, and it will not cost any additional budget, and the client will have no problem with it. But I want you to flip the genders in those two screens. Put the boy in the kitchen with mom and put the girl on the soccer field with dad." Because they had two TV executions. They had the girl in the kitchen with mom.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: They had the boy on the soccer field with dad. Just one little tweak, flip those genders, you absolutely role model as, as, as we should, and no skin off your nose for anybody.
Speaker 1: And I think it's a brilliant bringing to life of the challenge of the road ahead, right? If we don't change from within, then we're never gonna change the kind of the outcome and the output, right? So, you know, what is it sort of, you know, you talk about the deeper question of, of, of kind of advertising, you know, excuses and reinforcement. You know, what are the patterns that you're still seeing everywhere?
Speaker 2: Well, honestly, Justin, the really obvious one is, and again, I've been banging on about this for years. If we want to sell to the world as it really is, we need to reflect the world as it really is. If you want to sell your clients' brands to the world, you, your agency, your teams, your creatives, have to represent the world. And we are not doing that, and if anything, we are going backwards as an industry at the same time as we're going backwards as a society because the current wave of anti-wokeness means that it's now okay not even to pay lip service to diversity and inclusion. And if you have a sea of white men at the top of your holding company, top of your agency, nobody cares. That's a huge problem.
Speaker 1: So let's talk a- about sort of, you know, basically MakeLoveNotPorn. So why did, you know, you need to be a business and a platform and not just a speech or a movement or a piece of activism?
Speaker 2: So, um, so first of all, um, uh, I've advised, um, entrepreneurs, especially women entrepreneurs, for years. And women will come to me and go, "Cindy, I see this problem in the world. I want to solve it, so I'm gonna start a nonprofit." No, no, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that.
Speaker 1: Love it.
Speaker 2: No, for profit. Because nonprofits get marginalized. Nobody takes you seriously. We only get taken seriously when we get taken seriously financially. And so, A, I knew that if I was gonna get taken seriously, I had to build a tech platform like all the ones springing up around me, but for this. And, you know, um, the interesting thing about that is, I mean, 17 years later I'm still out to prove my point. But the times have never been more conducive for it because, um, Marc Andreessen, you know, the, um, famous Silicon Valley VC, said a few years back, "Love does not scale." And what he meant by that was, um-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... you cannot scale anything that involves empathy and, you know-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... and so the only things that scale are money and power, as you may recall, you know. And I am out to prove you can scale love, and I'm scaling love.
Speaker 1: So talking about VCs for a second, what made you realize that you'd found product market fit?
Speaker 2: So, you know, I started MakeLoveNotPorn originally as a little side venture, kind of accidentally. You know, discovered through dating and having sex with younger men that when we don't talk openly and honestly about sex in the real world, porn becomes sex education by default, in not a good way. I'm a naturally action-oriented person, so I went, "Right, I'm gonna do something about this." And so 17 years ago I put up this tiny, clunky website at MakeLoveNotPorn.com that in its original form was kind of a public service announcement. Porn world versus real world. Here's what happens in the porn world, here's what happens in the real world. I launched MakeLoveNotPorn at TED in 2009. I became the only TED speaker to utter the words "cum on my face" on the TED stage, several times. The talk went viral as a result, and it drove this extraordinary global response to my tiny website that I had never anticipated. Thousands of people wrote to me from all around the world, young and old, male and female, straight and gay, pouring their hearts out, telling me things about their sex lives and their porn-watching habits they'd never told anyone before. And I realized I'd uncovered a huge global social issue. And so I describe MakeLoveNotPorn as the startup the world asked for, because I did not set out to confidentially build, you know, what I turned it into, which is effectively the documentary to porn's Hollywood blockbuster movie. You know, the only social sex video-sharing platform that celebrates how we all make love in the real world. And so, and so literally, um, the world told me, you know? And, and, you know, since that moment 17 years ago, the one thing I've had no doubt at all about is product market fit because, bloody hell, MakeLoveNotPorn has that in spades.
Speaker 1: It's really funny, you've, you've used the word social there, and you've, you know, you- you- you've kind of been quoted sort of calling the revolutionary part not the sex but the social. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: So, you know, um, I've been saying for 17 years, and I, I said this in my TED Talk but I've had to repeat it ever since, the issue isn't porn. The issue is we do not talk about sex openly and honestly in the real world. Because if we did, amongst a whole host of benefits, people would then be able to bring a real-world mindset to the viewing of what is simply performative produced entertainment. And so, you know, all those years ago I went, "Okay, I've got to find a way to make it easy for every single person in the world to talk openly and honestly about sex. How the hell am I gonna do that?" And so I decided very simply to take every dynamic in social media and apply them to this one area of universal human experience that no other social network or platform allows. I set out to quite literally socialize sex. And so, you know, what, um, what I mean when I say that is we are normalizing and destigmatizing sex. We're bringing it out of the shadows into the sunlight. We are taking the guilt, shame, and embarrassment out of it in order to make everybody feel able to talk about it. That's the social part.
Speaker 1: 17 years on, how much has the world moved, do you think? I mean, you know, I, I could go back to, you know, I could go back to thing, things like Grindr. I could go, I could look at kind of Killing Kittens. I could look at various kind of examples of kind of somewhat kind of a, a re- kind of interpretation of what the mainstream is and what... How far, how far do you think we've come in that time?
Speaker 2: Now, you know, um, I get asked something like this quite regularly, Justin. What I always say is, "You've asked that question the wrong way-
Speaker 1: Okay
Speaker 2: ... because you have asked it in the passive tense." All of this changes when you and I and everyone else make it change, and I don't wait for things to change. I make them change. So for 17 years I've been parallel pathing two things, working to build MakeLoveNotPorn and working to change the cultural and business context around it. Because when you have a truly world-changing startup, you have to change the world to fit it, not the other way around. And so I would say that I have been able to take MakeLoveNotPorn to places sex never gets to go generally, including, by the way, here at Cannes Lions. It, um, but what is really interesting is... A- and, and by the way, the, the, the unfortunate thing about this is if I'd raised the funding I was looking for 17 years ago, the world would be a much better place than it is currently. But this is indicative of how far we've come. So for years parents have been buying their teenage children subscriptions to MakeLoveNotPorn. We know that because they write to us and, and they tell us, "I want my kids to see what happy, healthy, loving sexual relationships actually look like." In the past couple of years, those messages become way more frequent and way more desperate. So last year, a mother wrote to us, she said, "I've just discovered my 12-year-old son is watching Pornhub. I would much rather he watch MakeLoveNotPorn. I know he's underage. Can we find a workaround?" Now, at MakeLoveNotPorn, we are more legal than legal, you know, fully Ofcom compliant, you know, age-gated, all of that. But our policy is parental judgment trumps that. As a parent, you know what's right for your child. As a parent, you are free to sign up as an adult. You can then gift a subscription to anybody you want. That mother has gifted a subscription to her 12-year-old son. Another mother wrote to us and said, "I have three teenage sons. I want to give them all subscriptions. Do you have a family plan?" And I said to my team, "Oh my God, we have to create a family plan." And last year, um, the UK journalist Fleur Britton wrote a great piece in The Times on why it's so important parents talk to their kids about sex, and she interviewed a mother who said to her, "My 12-year-old son was about to go off to boarding school. I knew he'd grow up very quickly there. I bought him a subscription to MakeLoveNotPorn." She said, "MakeLoveNotPorn is an island of good, healthy sex in a world that really needs it." 17 years ago, we would never have heard that from parents. That is how clear-sighted parents now are about what their children encounter online and how much they know that we are the solution, and that's progress.
Speaker 1: I, I can't believe, couldn't believe you, couldn't, I couldn't agree with you more. It's really interesting because, you know, uh, other great marketing disruptors, like, I mean, Scott Galloway, you know, he, you know, his, his kind of perception and perspective on kind of young men. You know, you're, you're, you're really kind of, you know, catching kind of, I hope, a zeitgeist now of, of a real need in society. You know, recent Netflix shows that again sort of really deal with the, the manosphere and so forth, right? What sort of are you seeing in terms of a shift, not just from kind of consumers and adapting your, your business model around family planning, but from, from kind of, you know, partners and, and advertisers and, and, and CMOs?
Speaker 2: So what I'm especially excited about is that, um, in April, I launched a campaign with member of Parliament in the UK, Samantha Nitbit, to get the whole of Britain talking about sex. And that is because Samantha absolutely sees how critically important the work I'm doing is with both MakeLoveNotPorn and MakeLoveNotPorn.Academy, our sex education extension. And so we, we have partnered to launch a campaign called Yes Sex Please We're British, designed to get the whole of Britain talking about sex. We, we've pronounced the fact that this is a summer of sex. Um, Samantha has proposed and had approved a debate in Parliament o- on the importance of lifelong sex education. That debate will take place, um, post this summer, but probably early, early fall. And so in the run-up to that, we are information gathering. We, we've invited everybody in the UK to email us at education@yessixpleasewe'rebritish.com, tell us what you're doing about sex education, what you wish you'd had, what you'd love to see. And interestingly, you know, we, um, um, we are making this, um, very much, um, w- we want to instill a sense of British national pride in being the first nation to talk openly and honestly about sex. So we are talking to British ce- celebrities. Emma Thompson has endorsed our campaign. Um, we are talking to, interestingly, some Great British brands, and so I can't tell you anything about that right now, but we have some very interesting brands in the pipeline, and all with the aim of bringing all this out into the open, integrating lifelong sex education into Britain systemically and culturally, and importantly pioneering a national template that other countries can then learn from and potentially implement themselves. And so I'm, I'm, I'm very excited about that because I feel that this is a zeitgeist moment for all of this, and we're determined to ride it.
Speaker 1: You're, you're known as the Michael Bay of business, and you blow shit up, which I absolutely love as a phrase. What does that mean to a CMO, a creative director, you know, or a CEO trying to make better decisions?
Speaker 2: I've been saying this for many years, but honestly, to own the future, you often have to blow it all up and start again. Now, that is not a path a lot of people want to take, um, not least because, by the way, you'll absolutely see a dip in profits before you can grow them exponentially. But, um, look around you at Cannes Lions this week, okay? Because what we are seeing is something that I've deplored for years, and again, I've been, you know, speaking out about this darn history for years. You know, so we saw this first with the explosion of digital. You know, we saw agencies and holding companies go, "Oh, oh, what is the new shiny digital thing? You know, uh, we, we must be on that thing." And so what happened was that we as an industry gave away all our power to the tech world, and that was a huge mistake because we are the business model for the internet. Mark Zuckerberg's billions do not exist without advertising. You know, Evan Spiegel's billions don't exist without advertising. And so we ha- we had an opportunity, and we, and by the way, we have this opportunity again with AI, which is why I'm speaking out about it again in the new wave of, you know, tech innovation. We have an opportunity to go, you know, um, we've got the money, therefore we've got the power, therefore we will decide what we would like to see this technology do for us that absolutely enables us to bring our creativity into play, and if you do that, then we're gonna pay you a shit ton of money. As opposed to what has happened a- all, you know, all, all through the years, which is, "Oh, oh, please, please, Facebook, let's advertise with you. Please, please, Snapchat, let's advertise. Please, please, TikTok." Now it's, "Please, please, OpenAI. Please..." N- no. We don't have to take what they give us because we are their business model. And, and by the way, you know, d- um, I said this especially when Sam Altman announced that OpenAI was gonna allow ch- uh, sexting on ChatGPT. You know, um, the two things the tech world always reverts to when it needs to make money, advertising and porn. And the rest of the time they despise us, by the way, but you bloody bet that they will use advertising and sex to make money. And so, you know, I r- I really want to see our industry take back its own power, you know, have a really good sense of that power and wield it. Because we have what they want, which is the money. Use that to get the outcomes that we want. By the way, not just for us and our clients, but also for consumers. Because we have the opportunity to use that financial power for good, to refuse to endorse anything that jeopardizes consumers, makes them unsafe in all sorts of ways, which, as you know, is rife, especially now with AI.
Speaker 1: And with all of your experience of operating inside agencies and your understanding of the market, how do you actually kind of make that happen? You know, you've got, you've got the media folks, you've got the creative folks, you've got the brands. How do you make that happen?
Speaker 2: Honestly, you do it very simply by doing what, again, nobody seems to be, which is taking a step back and going, "I have a philosophy of what I think the future industry is." Which by the way, not many people do in this industry, okay? They don't have a vision in our industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I can see how I could use this technology to make that happen in this way, and then go to that technology and go, "I've got the ideas. And, and, and by the way, partner with me, and when people see the results, they're all gonna wanna jump on the bandwagon." You know. But I know what, for example, AI advertising should be and look and feel like. Okay? Nobody's saying that right now. They're going, "Oh, yeah, Sam Altman, we'll take what you give us." You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh, no. So, so i- it's very simple. You decide what you want the future to be, and then you make it happen.
Speaker 1: You've spent years talking about sex and gender and power in public. Where do you think media and advertising still do the most damage?
Speaker 2: Honestly, um, you know, it, it boils down very simply, Justin, to the fact that we continue to be a male-dominated industry. Everything we do is through the male lens. Okay? And, and by the way, it does not matter how many women you have in the lower ranks of the industry if the white male ECD goes, "I don't get that campaign, girls. We're not running that." Okay? So, you know, it, it's about who approves the work.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: You know? Um, through whose lens that work gets approved. And so honestly, we are missing out on so many opportunities to represent a different kind of world in a way that would absolutely bring consumers in and make them want to engage with, with the brands that do that. Because the white men running our industry have no need of change in that world and can't conceive of what that should be. When you have women, Black people, people of color, LGBTQ, people with disabilities, when you have all of those people creating the ads, directing the ads, photographing the ads, running the ads, then you have advertising and messaging that speaks to the world and sells to the world. But a- but as long as the industry does not fully represent the world as it really is, you know, we're never gonna see that happen. That's the problem.
Speaker 1: I wanna talk about, you know, the fact that you say the thing that others maybe won't, um, or daren't. Um, your whole career's sort of been built on sort of, uh, you know, kind of challenging that kind of polite status quo business culture. Um, what has that kind of honesty made easier for you, and what has it, it made harder?
Speaker 2: Honestly, it's made absolutely nothing harder-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... um, that I can think of.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know. Um, and what, what it makes easier is simply the fact that I'm always being myself, you know? Um, I mean, it's, it, it, it's funny because again, here we are at Cannes Lions, okay? You know, I've just come off, um, a panel that I was on. There are, you know, leaders in our industry all week, you know, speaking on panels, giving keynotes, et cetera, and I can tell you that every one of those people has been completely paranoid about what they're gonna say on stage. They have made the moderator go through all the questions in advance. They have prepared all of their answers. Um, you know, they have absolutely written out that keynote or had somebody else write it for them, then rehearsed it. You know? And honestly, um, it's so different and so relaxing for me because, you know, I say to moderators on panels, "I don't wanna see the questions beforehand." I'm completely happy answering them spontaneously because I don't have to worry what corporate comms thinks. I don't have to worry what my CEO's gonna say when he hears this soundbite then. You know, um, I don't care. You know? And that's just enormously liberating and freeing and very, very relaxing and very, very not stressful.
Speaker 1: Do you think we're entering a world where that is what people now crave in a world which is so kind of sanitized and, and, and rehearsed?
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people don't even know that's possible. You know? Um, and it is interesting because, you know, uh, I've spoken for years about the fact that the single most paralyzing dynamic in business and in life is fear of what other people will think And unfortunately, you know, when you operate within the corporate advertising and marketing world, um, there are a lot of people to fear what they think, you know? Um, and, and as I say, that's a huge shame because I, I remember years ago, a friend of mine was hired to do video interviews at TED. This is back in the days I used to attend TED. And, um, and, and it was on the day when they invited in brands. Um, uh, this is still in the early years when they're still trying to sell brands and marketers on the idea of coming to TED, sponsoring partly. Anyway, so I discovered my friend trailing des- constantly around the brands of TED with a videographer in tow. I went, "How's it going?" And she said, she said, "It's terrible." She said, um, her brief was to get these marketers to talk about their observations of TED. She said, she said, "I cannot get anybody to go on video saying anything. They're all too worried about what, you know, their PR director-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... will say, their corp..." You know. A- and, and by the way, I knew all the people that she was talking to. These are all friends of mine fr- from the ad world. They are very bright, you know, um, very charismatic, confident marketing leaders, and they dare not go on camera just saying their reactions to TED without corporate comms having approved it first. That is sad. That is really sad. And, and I don't think people realize how transformative it is when you don't have to do that anymore.
Speaker 1: And why does that happen so much in today's world?
Speaker 2: It happens, I mean, it's always happened-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... um, historically because of the media, the press. Now it happens because put one foot wrong on social media and you are the internet's main character for that day, and nobody wants to be the internet's main character for that day. Um, a- and by the way, that fear is overblown, um, i- um, in my book. In fact, ironically, um, we could do with a ton more marketers speaking boldly and authentically and originally, because that plays really well with Gen Z and with all other audiences. Um, but I think people are just too unnerved about the idea of saying the wrong thing, putting a foot wrong, and having it, like, shit out, you know, across the internet.
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about, I guess, you know, building differently and you being a, a disruptor, and you're advising and backing businesses across marketing work and consumer products. What patterns do you now s- spot early in founders who are trying to change a category?
Speaker 2: Do you know, I still don't see, um, founders with really radical ambitions.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, I obviously see founders who want to, you know, change things for the better generally.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But, a- a- and I sense especially b- of women because, I mean, you know, we have but even begun to see what the world could be reinvented in the female lens. But because women are not encouraged to think big, they are certainly never given the funding to, like, think big, build big, and scale big. Um, we don't, I mean, I know there are a ton of ideas out there that I've never come into contact with and probably never will because nobody will fund them, and that's a huge problem. Um, I say the answer to everything literally is fund female founders. We, we, we have still not seen, you know, only 1.7% of all venture capital goes to female founders. That's why we have still not see how much safer, better, happier, and by the way, way more lucrative the future internet will be when it's designed and built through the female lens, two keywords, at scale. We've still never seen that. Obviously, I have, you know-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... my platform, I want to scale love. Um, and that's radical. Um, but there isn't enough support, there isn't enough infrastructure, there isn't enough wealth, and there is not enough funding for the really radical ideas that women can bring to the table. And, a- and I just wanna see that happen a whole lot more.
Speaker 1: And if, if you could, if you could kinda back kind of one category, genuinely ca- genuinely disruptive or, or defining kind of business, what, what would it be?
Speaker 2: Um, honestly, it is my own category.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's sex tech.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know? And, uh, and I say that, Justin, also because, um, so, y- y- you know, as I said earlier, I believe that we have a really truly world-changing startup, you have to change the world to fit it, not the other way around. All of my problems, um, and challenges at MakeLoveNotPorn are infrastructure problems. I can't get funded. I can't get banked. I can't put payments in place. I can't advertise. You know, every tech service I need to use for a video platform, hosting, coding, encrypting, the terms of service always say, "No adult content." So I believe that if the ecosystem was meant to enable me to scale and thrive shuts me out, I'm gonna build my own ecosystem. And so I have a product roadmap for MakeLoveNotPorn that is focused on infrastructure. I have, at the core of it, MakeLoveNotPorn sex tech, very hard to raise funding for. Then I have an ed tech product, MakeLoveNotPorn Academy, a fintech product, an ad tech product, an AI product. And by the way, I did not set out to be an ed tech founder, a fintech founder, an ad tech founder, AI founder, but I have to-
Speaker 1: That's how you do get shit done
Speaker 2: ... yep, yep, because I wanna build my own infrastructure-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... so, so that everybody else can use it as well, and I'm gonna make a shit ton of money out of that, and that's how I'm gonna fund MakeLoveNotPorn. So, um, so, um, when I talk about scaling my sector, there is so much opportunity because when I build that infrastructure, that unlocks liquidity and risks. You know, one of my challenges raising funding is there are no exits. There's nothing to point to, to... You know, I can help make those exits happen with infrastructure that unlocks the liquidity and demonstrates what funding will actually deliver. So that's what I'm focused on.
Speaker 1: You're driven, you're relentless, you're here at Cannes. What gives you hope for the future?
Speaker 2: Well, actually, you know, I'm, um, I'm really hopeful about what I'm seeing at Cannes this year. And I say that because, um, there are a ton of creators here. And, and by the way, I want, I want to say full kudos to Cannes for building their creator program, because the excitement amongst creators, um, about Cannes Lions this year, and the fact that Cannes Lions is therefore making itself known in corners of the internet and the world that, that were totally unaware of it until 2026, um, is really w- well done, um, to, to, to, to Simon Cook and the whole Cannes team, Cannes team. Um, but, um, I'm loving the new injection of energy all these creators are bringing, and also the fact that, um, they are doing what I talked about earlier, which is they're coming here, they're going, "I want to see how I can make this work for me." You know? Um, a- and I've been, you know, reading their posts on LinkedIn and Twitter and, you know, monitoring all of that because I'm just very interested in this whole new audience, um, uh, uh, that is coming in. And I think there's a new energy and a different kind of feeling, um, around creativity. You know, because this is a massive injection of creator energy that is over and above. I mean, I mean, the tech companies were bloody drowning in them by now, honestly. I mean, just go down the falsetto, or, all with the most ridiculous names, can I just say? Um, but, but there is this massive onrush of creative energy coming from all the creators, and I think that's gonna take Cannes Lions and our industry into very interesting places. And so I'm, I'm hopefully excited about that.
Speaker 1: Cindy, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2: I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, Justin. Thank you. Thank you for having me.