The Clear Story

Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to this edition of the Business Marketing, recorded live here at Cannes Lions '26 in the Empower Cafe. And I'm delighted to be joined by Lana Busignani. Is that... No?

Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah. Good. Excellent job.

Speaker 1: That's very good. I've done it.

Speaker 2: Excellent job.

Speaker 1: Mad. Fantastic. Thank you.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You're the CEO of MarketCast.

Speaker 2: Yes, right.

Speaker 1: And I'm really looking forward to this conversation 'cause I think it's gonna be a little bit about how you build an insights and media business that people can really understand, buy, and grow with when the offer is so fragmented and the data's messy. You've spent years leading across analytics, outcomes, retail, media, consumer insight, so th- I think this is gonna really be about sort of, you know, clarity, integration, commercial growth, and leadership under a bit of pressure as well.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Yes. Always.

Speaker 1: So let's-

Speaker 1: ... let's get in, um-

Speaker 2: Okay

Speaker 1: ... to... So you, you, y- y- you know, when you kind of read up about you, you talk a lot about sort of, you know, your work across media and ad tech and consumer insights and, and, and, and, you know, clients being kind of buried in the data, sort of what are they still kind of paying to get help with?

Speaker 2: Yes. So clients, clients do have a- access to a ton of information, uh, and, and data, and they, and they're really looking for ways to get to insights and action faster. And I think that, you know, something that we've seen over the years in working with clients is that you can deliver, uh, you can deliver even in just one report so much insight and information to them, and we would have a regular sort of cadence around checking in with a client to see what things got actioned out of all of the learnings. And what was incredible was just how much of those learnings were left on the cutting room floor, right? And so... And it was... And even with those-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... check-ins and even with that, that process, and I think that, that some of that is just aging of information, right? And that there's y- that it doesn't stay fresh, and it doesn't stay timely and, and in the hands of clients on a regular basis, right? And so instead of reporting like that, you know, clients are really... They're looking at, they're looking for different flavors depending on how their systems work and how in, you know, how sophisticated they are in terms of building those things out. But, you know, they want s- information that's always on. They want it in, you know... Speed is just, you know, that's table stakes, and it's been that way for a long time. And I think that, you know, as the media industry has... It, it's a fast-paced industry that changes so frequently anyway that, you know, speed is a constant. And, you know, so clients, you know, having that at their fingertips so that they can make decisions in a timely way, they can get to action right a- actionability, you know, right away is what they're looking for. That can take the form of yes, that's, you know, our d- our access to our UI and, and, and us building in AI insights so they can get to those things faster, and they can just tap on a star and get their insights. Um, or, and it does a lot of the work for them, right? The statistical testing and all of the things that they might do themselves. Um, or they might just want your data to be piped into their systems, right? And they want, they have their, they have their own integrations, and they wanna combine it with other things, and they want to be able to look at their big picture. You know, or they might want an agent that, that just, you know, looks at, you know, and assembles your information and gleans insights and delivers that directly to them without logging into any more dashboards, right? That... Lots of the proliferation of dashboards is a problem for our clients, too. So I think that clients, you know, depending on where they're at, you have to meet them where they are, and that's what clients are buying today.

Speaker 1: That's really interesting, and that, that, that requires a, a, you know, number one, a huge degree of kind of understanding of the client and their objectives, but also that ability to kind of adapt and flex. How do you kind of deliver that inside an organization?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that it, it, it's really a matter of, you know, you have... We stratify our own client base, right? We have really sophisticated clients who want direct access to data, and, um, they have the means of, of having int- an integrated system, and, and that's actually not as hard, you know, to do. That requires less innovation on our side, but we have to be organized with our data and information. You know, the, but there are a lot of clients that r- you know, do want a dashboard access with AI built in and, and to have that access for their teams to support their teams. Um, and you know, there are clients that still actually do want consulting support, and they want the analytics coming from us, and they want that support as well. So you know, really w- we've built that out to be able to support clients at different stages of development and different strategies, right? Um, they may... You know, the client that wants that dashboard may never be building their own data lake to, you know, support all of that. They're focused on the business that they're in, and the insights support their decision-making.

Speaker 1: You talk a lot about sort of simplifying the story. Um, what does a clear story sound like in a business that has lots of products and lots of data?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes. Well, I think that, you know, um, answering the question, what problem are we solving?

Speaker 1: For that

Speaker 2: That is really something that when you're, when you're innovating your products and you're adding features and functionality, or you're catching up to something that the, your competition has that your client's asking if you can do, too, and, um, I think you can get lost on what is the, what are the, what is the thing we're really solving for a client? And I think that, you know, that's really what can clarify your product offering and make sure you have product market fit, and you know what your client profile looks like, and you, you know, who you're talking to and what you're doing for them. So y- I find that that's also a unifi- a unifying element for your own teams, right? So if they understand the problem that you're solving, that gets cross-functional teams all on the same page contributing to, you know, doing, you know, solving that for, for clients, and that keeps your client at the center as well, so you don't get lost on the internals of it, right?

Speaker 1: When you inherit a business with, with a lot of capability, how do you decide kind of w- what the headline story should be? And like, granted, what problem do we solve, right?

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: That's great-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... but sort of there's a headline story above or around that.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So we, in coming into MarketCast, we do have a lot of capabilities, right? And some of that is organizing ourselves around our end markets. So, you know, we work with ads, brands, and content. Um, and in those areas, you know, we have different end markets. We have those that are, um, selling advertising and supporting advertising, and really trying to show value to their advertisers. We also are on the brand side, and we're working with brands who are trying to understand how their per- ads are performing, how their brands are doing, how they're building brand and their investments. And, and I think that end markets can really give you, you know, give you your roadmap on, okay, that, how do you simplify your story is, you know, really how do these, how do your products solve those questions for, for those end markets? I think that you, you know, one element of simplifying your story is, you know, what, what are the pairings or products that actually really do make one plus one equal three, and not forcing connections that don't naturally occur. Um, so I think that that's one element. Uh, and so, you know, starting simply with pairings, you know, we've done that a lot in, in... I've done that a lot with various teams on like, okay, if you're buying this product, what is the, what's the other thing that can be additive to that?

Speaker 1: A natural fit.

Speaker 2: A natural fit-

Speaker 1: Right

Speaker 2: ... that serves that end market, right? And so I think, you know, pairings is a nice way to start-

Speaker 1: Love that

Speaker 2: ... to understand the connections between products and, you know, not forcing connections that don't work. We also kind of look at, you know, our, our solutions in a way to understand, like, is this something that we know where we're going and we're investing in? Is this something that we're going to test some things and incubate? Um, is this something that should be retired, and it's really not meeting the, it, the product market fit isn't there anymore. Something's changed in the marketplace. So you, you know, retiring things and letting go is hard sometimes because there's often revenue attached to something like that, that you don't want to let go of. But in, in the name of simplification and actually leaving more room to grow in the places that make more sense, that kind of, you know, discipline to retire things is important, you know. It, and it's hard because a lot of teams will, will reject that or fight for something to stay alive. And, um, so that's also an important part of, of simplification is culling what isn't working anymore. The other thing I will just say is, is that, um, it's important i- in the work that we do in terms of like, okay, how do you identify those buckets, um, you know, understanding, doing, stepping back and doing, um, kind of a deep dive on the industry and what's changing. You know, where are consumers spending their time? How is that shifting? How is media investment changing, and what's happening with media? You know, understanding, you know, sort of the, the, the trends and, and things happening in the world as one, as one place. Understanding voice of client, so going deep on your products and understanding what clients love about them, what they struggle with, what they need out of- where their challenges are. And then understanding your competitive marketplace, right? Understanding what's happening in your space. And those three areas really helping to inform, you know, how you, how you, where you invest, where you incubate, what you retire, and, you know, how do you s- how do you stratify that?

Speaker 1: I love that. You've got a, you know, a really great track record of sort of about sort of going into kind of new verticals and, and client diversification and geographic expansion.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Sort of following that kind of theme and thread, I suppose. Like, you know, when you look at a business today, kind of where do you go first for growth?

Speaker 2: Yes. Well, I think that, you know, in coming into a, a new business, um, and understanding, uh, you know, looking for growth, I think first understanding what's happening a- at the company.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Um, the, one of the things that I think that, you know, e- every company, every company's in a different place in a different stage, and in the case of really trying to set a new direction for an organization n- is to understand is, what's our, where are the challenges in the company? Is it an execution problem? You've got great products, you've got great clients, but- Do you have an executional issue around your commercial team? Or how your team, you know, the collaboration across your teams, like, uh, you know, do you have cohesion between, you know, your, your product team, your commercial team, your marketing teams? Is, is there a problem with the mission? Yeah, does everyone understand the mission? Is there cohesion? Is everyone rowing in the same direction? You know, the execution challenge, you know, maybe, you know, you don't have the right leader in a spot, or you don't... your commercial motion, uh, is not right, or you need to invest in your sales team, training and, and new tools and scaling them, or whatever the issue may be. Or maybe it's product innovation, right? A longer longer trajectory if, if it's that. And so really, where to look for growth is really, like, where are your challenges and what's not working and, and how do you attack that as an organization? Um, so, you know, in the, in, i- in, in various cases in, in my past, you know, it's been around really, um, having a model that was more, you know, in the research world a lot of times you have a seller-doer model. And, and so moving, you know, separating those things and having an account team that's responsible for delivery, and a sales team that's totally focused on commercial growth, um, and separating those two functions, you know, it's as simple as that. But-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... there are still places that, that still is, is, is, you know, s- un- people understanding their swim lanes, and who's responsible for renewal, and who's responsible for new growth, and, and w- how does that work between those teams. That can be a very, you know, sort of immediate place where you look for growth. There's lots of other things, of course, in terms of like-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... okay, are, are, you know, should we look at geographic expansion? And really which products are, you know, able to travel more simply? Are the markets ready or not, you know? There's so many, you know, anytime you have a successful product, even though the US, you know, we're a more US-based company, but we have a European, uh, based organization as well, and we have solutions that travel really well between those, and then we have other solutions that would be a lot of investment in infrastructure. There's where you need to know that the market's ready for you, right, before you invest in, uh, in that infrastructure. But, um, you know, I've always worked in the international space, so global expansion and geographic expansion is always, you know, in your mind because the biggest players want that.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And, and you have a successful product and, and, and offering in the US, your global clients always wanna ask, y- you know, "When are you coming to Europe? When are you coming to Asia?" And, um, and it's really a matter of what travels well first and setting that footprint, and then for the more sophisticated or bigger investments, you know, next. Um, I think it, you know, on an, uh, you know, in, in the other case we also look at industries, and we have a really great fit with, um, industries that are really working to build brand, you know? Industries like automotive, financial services, um, where people are making, not making the decision overnight to, you know, change their insurance, right? Um, so we're very successful with, you know, those types of businesses and really, you know, are there other types of businesses that are really interested in building brand. And, you know, so looking for those tangential industries that have things in common with places where you're already sh- you know, feeling good success.

Speaker 1: I'm loving this conversation. Why don't I just have to say that?

Speaker 1: It's just, it's like I'm, this is a mini MBA for me. Fantastic.

Speaker 1: Selfishly.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Um, so let's talk a little bit about, and I, I lo- and I lo- I love what you were saying earlier around kind of, like, where things are going and starting to kind of anticipate kind of, you know, like, skate where the c- puck is going somewhat, but I can see that that's sort of, you gotta, you gotta be careful on that one. But what are you seeing from clients that's changing the way kind of commercial teams need to sell insight and media products?

Speaker 2: Yes. I think, you know, clients, they're definitely testing and learning.

Speaker 1: Mm.

Speaker 2: So I would say that when you, when you're bringing new capabilities to clients, they, they want to do proof of concept, they want to test those things out with you, and they, the, you know, maybe they hand you a, a brand, or they hand you a market, or they hand you, you know, something s- something where you can tackle it and see what kind of partnership they can create with you, and, and really understand, you know, what you're, what you're able to do, right? Um, so I think that clients are a little bit... There's so much out there, and there's so much being promised out there, that I do think that, you know, clients before they make big moves are doing, you know, more around, you know, testing things out-

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: ... and, you know, making sure that you have the capability that you're claiming, and that it's functioning the way, the way that you're promising, and, and they, they work with you in, in that way. Um, I think they also, like I said, I think they're also pretty diverse in terms of how they want to work with you and what their, what their organization is demanding, right? Whether that's direct integrations and simplifying the, you know, fitting into their world and piping your data into their, um, in- into their systems or, you know, are they, are they wanting you to, um, you know, wanting you to provide them the solution and to build that out for them. Um, I, you know, clients always kind of toggle between the two spaces of wanting things their way, but also wanting speed, um, and wanting also, you know, things like gu- guidance around, you know, performance, which means they need norms and standardization, which means the custom side kind of goes away with that, too, right? And so I think that, you know, speed is kind of winning out- In that space where clients are willing to let go of some of the sort of, um, special snowflake stuff that's like, "Oh, we want this just this way," um, in order to go faster because there's a lot more pressure to prove value and, and deliver that on a, on a faster, you know, on a speedier basis. Um, so I think that that's also something that's, that's kind of winning out is s- speed over personalization. And of course, clients always want, want a bit of both. So, you know, modularity is also another, is another place where you can kind of get in the middle, right? Where you may be able to customize to some degree, um, but still deliver with speed and not compromise on that.

Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about, um, the sort of the holy trinity of kind of product and sales and marketing. You talked a little bit about kind of separating out kind of sa- the sales function from the, the kind of doing kind of function.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, I think, I think equally kind of clients really value being able to still sort of talk to the kind of the insight kind of lead-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... the strategic kind of lead.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: How, how do you think about sort of like that, that relationship between those kind of three areas of a business?

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Well, it's critical, right? Uh, and, you know, really, I, when, when you think about, you know, the kind of joints between product and, product and commercial and, you know, commercial and marketing, you know, commercial and delivery, um, even, so even, you know, the, the d- the team that's in- interacting with clients on a regular basis, those, uh, joints are where the client re- you know, that's where the client experience happens. And if there's a disconnect there, clients have a bad experience, right? And, um, so keeping the connection between those teams and everyone on the same page is extremely important. And, you know, really, um, we work really hard at that in terms of like making sure that product and commercial are very much on the same page around what the voice of client is saying and what product's a- agenda is and what their roadmap is. We have a regular gathering of, of, of this, of that group. And, you know, we're a newish team. We have a new management team, you know, new CMO, new f- new CRO, new CEO. We have lots of new salespeople in the organization since January, and, you know, when we first started those, you know, operating reviews with the, with the team, things were really polite and really kind of check, check the box and, you know, people stayed in their lanes. There wasn't as much interaction or dialogue in those meetings and, and we were sort of, you know, getting through. And we just had a most recent one after five months, and we've been refining the process all along, and it, it actually got a little bit spicy on the call and people called people out, and we're like, "Where's this, and what are we doing about that?"

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And there was a lot more sort of like frothy-

Speaker 1: That's what you want, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I loved it.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: It was really frothy. And, um, at the end of the call, I was like, "This was my absolute favorite offering review." And-

Speaker 1: I've got that.

Speaker 2: I like, you know, families, you know, squabble.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And families, this is real communication. And, um, and I kind of loved it even though there were some ruffled feathers in the moment, um, and you even saw, you know, someone on the team who's quite sort of calm and cool and never, never says anything got a little bit mad on the call.

Speaker 1: Sharp under the collar.

Speaker 2: And I was like, "Wow, I love seeing that person get mad," you know, because they, they, it means that it, you know, something broke through, it meant something, and we really communicated. And so I was like, "Yeah, we're becoming a real team and a family who can talk to each other." So I think that, you know, those, building that muscle with a, with a team who can do that is, is really important.

Speaker 1: Oh, I'm, I'm imagining that's... Congratulations-

Speaker 2: Thank you

Speaker 1: ... is what I want to say.

Speaker 2: I know.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I, well, I wanted people to actually not leave the meeting mad but appreciate that it, it was valuable, you know, that it was valued by me, too, you know?

Speaker 1: Where does strategic kind of partnerships sit kind of for you? Like, you know, what, you know, you know, in, in, in the plan and the playbook and how you think about it, sort of, you know, when, you know, and what makes a partnership worth the management time?

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, you know, strategic partnerships, there's lot, there are a few different flavors, right? Strategic partnerships with, with a client, with like an enterprise client. Those clients, uh, really, they are the ones who drive your own innovation and drive you to be better and better, right? And they, they really help you round out your offering, complete your offering, and become even more competitive in the marketplace and serve a whole client base, right? And, um, so really, you know, the partnerships that push you, they're tough. They challenge you. Uh, and they might be, you know, the critical ones and the tough to please, but I think you have to really appreciate those partnerships for, you know, getting you to be your best and, you know, helping you to push beyond what you think's possible and get there for that strategic partnership. Um, you know, it's, it's sort of the, you, you know, those big relationships are obviously very valuable to, to any company, but then the, what they offer you in terms of your own development and your own expansion and, you know, is, is even Valuable, be far beyond that, right?

Speaker 1: I, I love that. That's more additive than, than I'd thought about before.

Speaker 2: It helps you succeed in the marketplace, right? And, um-

Speaker 1: Beyond the partnership, as it were.

Speaker 2: Beyond that partnership-

Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that

Speaker 2: ... and the, beyond the, the annual revenues, you know, of, of that partnership. I think on the sort of product side of partnerships where you have a partner who's really critical to your own innovation is, is a partnership that, uh, you, a partner you really trust and who listens to what you need, co-creates with you, you know, is willing to lean in and innovate with you, and, you know, be a partner for really ex- helping you succeed as a business, but also hopefully you're helping them succeed as a business as well in the same way, right? So us as a, as, you know, having a vendor who we rely on as a partner and, um, us really getting, getting, pushing them along to innovate in the same way that, you know, one of our clients is pushing us, right? Um, those partnerships are really critical to us as well. You know, that's someone that we can really trust to innovate with us when we are getting pressure from a client to do things better.

Speaker 1: And the when, the when part of that question is, is I'm really intrigued by because, you know, you've, you've, you've kind of really brilliantly kind of broken down kind of how you go in and you really move a needle for a business. But when, when does strategic partnerships kind of really kick in?

Speaker 2: When do they kick in?

Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, sorry, maybe I'll ask that question be- in a better way, as in, you know, there are times when it's right to look at partnerships, and there are times when it's definitely not right. I suppose the obvious one being we've found product market fit or whatever, but-

Speaker 2: Oh

Speaker 1: ... I was just more about just y- I think you've, I think you've got a playbook that you kind of use or, and, uh, when it comes to kind of-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... the when side of partnerships.

Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that-

Speaker 1: I don't know, just again, a Spidey sense you have.

Speaker 2: I get, I get what you're asking. I think that, um, you know, there are times where you can be part of the team, but you're not the best lead player.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Or you maybe don't, you don't want to fully... You can play in that space. You can offer something to that space. But you can't fully invest in it to, to lead it yourself. And so finding a partner who can, who's better at that, but your, your data or something, your capability can enhance what they're doing, and you can just be a, you know, sort of a secondary player-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... or a more behind the scenes player. Those kinds of relationships I think can be really valuable in that they, maybe they, they use less calories for you. It becomes sort of a nice annuity for you. But you're not, you know, you're not having to drive everything on your own. So I think that, you know, partnerships can take different fl- flavors and-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... and knowing where you might be able to contribute something to an offering, but you don't have to be the leader, and so your, you know, your take rate's going to be less, but your lift is going to be less. And, and it allows you to maybe diversify and be part of something, but not necessarily have to build out an entirely new, you know, kind of sales organization or some kind of new muscle that you just don't have, you're not ready to develop yet.

Speaker 1: And talking about that new, you've just put in, you know, the what? January, you put in a new, seems like a pretty much a C-suite, like CRO and-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker 1: ... and so forth.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So talk me through briefly kind of like what is it that you look for when you're hiring kind of leaders?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think, uh, I think what's really important to me is I really like... Well, I, I think attitude matters so much, and people who bring, uh, positivity and people who are lean forward, who want to be, um, who kind of, they don't really, you know, stay only in their lane. They're willing to help, um, across and reach across. Um, I also really think, you know, people who think in practical ways, you know? Like, there's a lot of sort of, I think when it comes to, like, we're culture change, right? What's the best way to do that? That's not a top-down activity, you know? That's a, that's a grassroots up activity in my, in my opinion. And so I think, you know, p- people who bring practical ideas, people who really, um, take, bring actionable things to the table, that's, I, I think there's a, there, you know, people who bring examples and, and talk about things that they've done to impart change in an organization because you don't alway, you know, or I sort of describe this to people around, you know, organizations when people are sort of feeling like, "We don't have the money for this," or, "We don't have, we can't do this the right way."

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 2: Or, you know, I'd rather, you know, why can't we invest in that? And, you know, it's sort of like, okay, it's like homeownership, right? Like, of course, you know, you, you'd like to upgrade, you know, that, that spare bathroom and, and you, and you have, like, you know, other needs maybe outdoors, and that you need to, you need to stain the deck. And, but you know what? The roof has to be addressed, right? And so, you know, you don't have the money to make everything perfect, right? But there's lots of things you can do to make things better.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And it doesn't always mean money, you know? It means that, you know, you, there's, there's investment, there's an engaged leadership team who wants to be a part of solving things, and I think bringing people along as well. And so when I meet people and talk to them about what they've done in organizations where they've been, those kinds of anecdotes and things that people have done really mean something to me. Um, w- you know, when it's someone I, that is I haven't met or h- I don't know, you know, that really stands out for me.

Speaker 1: We're having this conversation in the Empower Cafe.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: Um, you, you know, have a phenomenally successful career and, you know, you've spoken a lot about mentoring female talent, you know, that juggles career, family, life in general. You know, what did you need earlier in your career that you now try to give to others?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, I think that... Well, time changes things, right? Um, I'm at a unique moment right now, and, and I'm, I'm loving it because I'm, I'm at a place that I am in my career and I have daughters who are entering the workplace, along with all of their friends. And, and I also have my son entering the workplace, along with all of his friends. And actually seeing that generation coming in and the things that, you know, they're worrying about and thinking about and, and asking about, it really helps... It, it really makes you reflect on-

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: ... like, oh, wow, um, what kind of, like, what kind of advice do you give to this, you know, th- this, like, very, uh, n- kind of, um, curious and kind of needy and l- you know, lost in some ways and... But, um, I think that, you know, one element I think i- for... I think this is a, a challenge for women in, in general, and I give this advice to a lot of people, is when you're looking for your next role and you're thinking about a change, uh, in your career, I, I always say to people, "Make sure that you, um, you have something to give, but make sure you're going to get something, too." And, you know, I think women look at a job description, and, and there's a lot of research around this that, you know, they sort of see, you know, all of the requirements of a, of a job description, and if they don't have the sort of majority-

Speaker 1: Hmm

Speaker 2: ... of them, they think, "I'm not ready for that yet." And, and I think that that's something that's a little bit inherent and, and, and something that we need to break. And-

Speaker 1: Totally

Speaker 2: ... and so I think that something that, um, that I tell people, and young people, male and female, is when you're looking at your next role, make sure, you know, yes, bring something to the role, but what... If you have all of the qualifications, what... where are you going to grow and develop? Like, what are you going to get out of that? And you need to leave space for that, that you will grow and develop, and that you're not just the perfect fit and you're not, you're, you're not going to experience growth if you, if you are... I- if, if it's not present in that, in that job description or in that role, right? And, you know, so I think that that's something that, you know, stretching yourself and being a little more brave around, "Yeah, I don't know how to do all of this stuff yet, but I c- I bring this part, and that's really important. I can learn that part, and I know I can get it," right? And, um, and so I think being a little more brave, getting out there, and taking on challenges where, yeah, there's gonna be a lot of growth there, but that's okay.

Speaker 1: Lana, I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for joining on the Business of Marketing.

Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you.