Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business and Marketing Podcast. My name's John Horsley, I'm the host of the show today. I have the absolute pleasure of being joined by Fiona Mackenzie who's president of Europe at MarketBridge. Welcome to the show, Fiona.
Speaker 2: Thanks, John. Thanks for having me. What an incredible setting we are having this chat in today. It's got to be my favorite podcast recording to date-
Speaker 1: Isn't it?
Speaker 2: ... without a doubt.
Speaker 1: And actually, I forgot to say, you know, we're coming live direct from Cannes Lions, of course.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, absolutely great to be here.
Speaker 1: Um, I normally ask this question as a kind of a s-... A starter for 10. What attracted you to the world of marketing, advertising, tech, media? So what was it that, that drew you in? What, what caught your attention in the first instance?
Speaker 2: So I did a media degree, and actually it was the marketing kind of side of it that I did through like elected options that always kind of, um, captured my attention, and I started my career in PR. I went to the CIPR Graduate Open Day, um, and I remember watching a couple of case studies where they talked through, um, some big campaigns, creative, like, I guess kind of real human connection. And I remember that was absolutely what caught my, uh, attention into the industry. So I started my career in PR. Um, I took the first job, I guess, that, like, uh, I was offered , which, uh, had some shiny brands on the surface, but it was pretty deep B2B tech. Um, and I kinda fell into it and I've been in B2B tech ever since, moving from PR into events and experiential, and then kind of finding, um, my way to, I guess, more traditional marketing and, and now really onto more kind of growth orientated strategy where all of that is starting to come together, so it feels like quite a full circle moment.
Speaker 1: Brilliant. Um, one of the reasons that we're sat here today is that you reached out to me on LinkedIn in the first instance, uh, with a bit of a thesis or synopsis or however you like to, to frame that, which I thought was great. Um, and that was around AI and how it's transforming go-to market. Uh, but also the, the kind of the perils and the pitfalls as well. Um, and the idea that you put forward that it's not necessarily fixing the underlying system. It'd be brilliant if you wa- want to sort of introduce that thinking and perhaps elaborate on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think, um, I think the first thing to say is marketers, like, there's a lot of noise, right? There has been a lot of change for a lot of marketers in terms of being asked to do more, to look after technology, you know, to, to become kind of specialists in data. Um, and that kind of, I guess, build has been accelerating over the last couple of years. And then AI's really come to the forefront, and that's kind of been, um, I guess kind of, "Is that gonna be the savior here?" And actually, what I'm seeing really strongly is actually it's the amplifier of a lot of the issues that have existed and a lot of the challenges we've all seen, we've all probably known about over the last couple of years. So I think AI can do great things, I think in the right system, um, it can achieve a lot. But I think fundamentally the conversation right now should be around, um, what is surfacing, um, and the broken parts of our go-to-market system that we, we really need to address first.
Speaker 1: So let's drill into that a little bit more. So when you're working with a client, uh, or a, a prospective comp- company, what are you finding in terms of what's broken and why?
Speaker 2: Um, I guess one of the biggest things that comes to mind straight away, which is, you know, the age-old problem, is, is data. Um, so we can produce great work, um, you know, we can cr- come up with some great creative, um, but if the data still exists in silos, um, and it's not connected, then how we kind of reach our buyers in a meaningful way, how we connect them across that messy, you know, non- nonlinear buyer journey that we know that exists is, is really, um, challenging. And that's probably been the biggest thing that I think has surfaced where, you know, at the end of the day if, if, um, data is disconnected, AI is going to have disconnected data to work from. So we found ourselves, um, you know, we've been speaking to clients and prospects for a lot of years about sorting out their data health, um, and I think now there's definitely a lot of people taking that conversation seriously based on seeing that if you layer AI on top, it's, it's maybe not gonna be the savior that it's promised to be, or it's in fact just gonna accelerate some of the issues and create more noisy market.
Speaker 1: I mean, shall we just call it what it is, which is SISO, you know, shit inshit out, you know?
Speaker 2: Quite, yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Which is often the case with any, any system that relies on data, whether it's CRM or, or others, and the, the hygiene and the clean- cleanliness, and actually the respect for data that a business has had-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... in the past.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. I think the bi- the biggest challenge, which I empathize slightly with but does kind of tie back to, to my... The thesis around that go-to-market kind of growth system that needs to exist in organizations is that, um, you know, if you, if you have, um, you know, if you're creating more content, if you have, you know, fragmented systems, silos within the organization, it's gonna create a problem, but some people can only do so much. So I think what the good news is for AI is it has surfaced to become a C-suite problem. It is now more of a leadership conversation than it has been before. So I think some marketers, a lot of CMOs that I speak to, they know what needs to happen, but they've already got a big ask and they have to think about like, "Well, where do I prioritize my time? Where are the barriers?" And solving the data disconnect issue i- it's been a huge task that, that takes more than marketing, and I think that's been the interesting thing about AI as well, is that it's forced more conversations outside of just the marketing team. How do we look at it across strategy, technol- data, technology, and activation all working in harmony?
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's not just the first party data of the business.
Speaker 2: Oh, no.
Speaker 1: You know? So it's obviously identifying other datasets that are important, how they're gonna be utilized, why, what value will be extracted.
Speaker 2: Exactly that. And, and I think there's a lot of, um, you know, as I said, uh, you know, CMOs are Inundated with more vendors, more technology, and more tools. And actually they all claim to kind of solve that data challenge, but to your point, we have lots of different pockets of, of data challenges that need to be sorted out. The, the real thing is how do we connect that first and third-party data, and how do we connect that into the wider go-to market ecosystem? Um, and I think, you know, that's where, uh, you know, that's where w- we get excited at Marketbridge, me and my team. You know, that's where we want to get in and really understand what are the barriers, how... What have you got? What can we break down? And I think the real strength for people is how can we create a realistic roadmap to change? And I think that's the big thing i- with AI, is there are some great things that are happening in pockets of innovation, but, um, you know, it really, they are just pockets. It might look like system change, it might look like improvement, but it's, it's really just kind of creating more, I guess, kind of volume or noise in one area, not potentially in another. And actually from a buyer's perspective, that just creates an inconsistent journey.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you used the word fragmentation at the start, and that's not just data. Uh, it would also talk to processes within a business. So when you're consulting with a client, is there a lot that needs to be fixed in terms of processes? Are they inherent? Are they inherent at different types of companies? Um, perhaps stages of growth?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, um, eh, the, the, the varying sides of the organization obviously differs, but I, I think the thing that is consistent is, and, and what's really fascinating if I look at kind of agencies, uh, like myself, is we, we find ourselves not just talking the strategy of, um, campaigns, or programs, or MarTech integration, we find ourselves consulting on change management increasingly more. How do we break down those fragmented systems and those silos, and how do we bring them together to make sure that we have leadership and all departments aligned? If we forget the processes for the moment, which almost come after that, is firstly how can we get everyone on the same page? And that piece is kind of, it really critical. Um, we had a good live example recently. We've come in working with a client, um, actually directly with a CCO, which I think is an interesting pivot as we start to kind of see different people take responsibility, um, in terms of briefing marketing agencies directly. Um, but she kicked off the strategy, and it wasn't, you know ... If I think back kind of five, 10 years, when you kick off a, a campaign, a program of, of the nature that we're doing, uh, a global product launch pivoting kind of their positioning in market, you'd have been talking predominantly to sales. You'd have been talking to the product team. In this instance, we're speaking to sales enablement, we're speaking to the CPO, um, we're speaking to all of the organizations to make sure that this lands and it isn't just, you know, a go back to a siloed kind of activity. It's got to be something that lives and breathes across the organisation for that growth to really exist and happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was interesting you talking about the CCO briefing you, not the marketer. Are you finding more CFOs being involved in the p- in the process and perhaps, hm, taking more land in terms of the decision making, uh, over marketing activities, uh, and investments into tech, AI transformation, however we, we're gonna frame this?
Speaker 2: I mean, the short answer is yes. I mean, you know, the, um, I've spoken to a few marketing leaders recently where, you know, the de- the decision and the approval process with the CFO has never been tighter. Um, they're obviously demanding more R- ROI. They wanna know the impact, they wanna know what return they're gonna get. Um, and you know, where budgets were kind of free for marketing to own and kind of proceed as they saw fit, there is definitely more scrutiny. Um, I think, uh, there's a, there's an opportunity there in terms of surfacing, you know, uh, the thinking in your team and the ethos that marketers have to really think about, you know, is what I... You might have traditionally thought h-... This activity that I'm doing, this campaign activity that I'm doing, what results will it achieve? But today, when you've got the CEO, uh, CFO, sorry, on your back as pr- to probably as much as they do, you really need to be clear of: How is this activity going to move the buyer towards generating revenue? How is it gonna help our commercial goals? And those success measures can't be in isolation of the marketing team. They need to be across, uh, the wider sales customer experience, um, as well.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that marketers have, I wouldn't say demoted themselves, but almost put themselves in the basket of, oh, they're the promotions department in the eyes of a, a CFO over year, over the years through behavior?
Speaker 2: I think, um, I think there's definitely, if, if I'm really honest, I had a really, um, transparent and quite deep conversation with a CEO that, a CMO that I've been working with for a number of years. Um, and she was talking around some of these challenges, and I sort of questioned her and she said, "I almost have to take it back to the day I got the role, the strategy that I presented that they signed off on. And I think what's happened to me in the last few years since I presented that strategy, and I've almost become numb to it," she said. "I've almost, I've almost kind of stopped trying to fight the battle." Um, because, you know, the constant asks or the, you know, ih- I s- I sort of talk a lot about marketers losing their mojo. Um, and I think that's, that's a bit of it. I think that we have to kind of continue to find purpose. We have to find meaning in our role. We're not gonna be able to break down all the barriers in the organisations, but, um, we have to be able to find kind of a road map to impact and, and find the advocates in the business that are gonna support us. So I think to answer your question, there There is a reality of that, without a doubt.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Do you feel though that that may change because of AI answer engines, um, the shift from performance marketing at all costs, so where we've been... For instance, your tech business, I mean, huge proliferation of, uh, performance over the last 10 years, to the need now to develop brands, to develop c- a clear voice, to better differentiate, to create content that's, that's gonna cut through even more noise that's out there, but also to answer the key and burning questions of the board, which is, "Shit, we're losing all this traffic month for month." Uh, f- if we're gonna continue like this, we're not gonna have a business in, you know, two years' time.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. There's a couple of things that come to mind in that. So the first is around measurement, and I think that, um, a lot of marketing teams are starting to really understand the needs for having that attribution model so that they can really demonstrate the impact across their media, across their advertising spend, so they can, you know, show what happens if they do turn it off. You know, what happens if we do switch off brand? What impact does that have on our revenue? Um, the second piece is obviously the rise of, um, generative engine optimization, GEO. Um, and I guess on a more granular level, um, we've really seen some of the insights there actually open up quite good discussions for marketeers to be able to take real evidence and value around, um, brand, around how the audience is or brand is perceived, how the audience are searching and where we're showing up, and that's actually provided quite a lot of evidence to open up those conversations about the importance again of how our brand presents, but also how we're connected. Because of course, you can have a great story out there that says you can do X, Y, and Z, but actually if your reviews say the opposite, then the LLMs are gonna surface that, they're gonna show it up. So it has to be a connected story. You have to be able to really meet your brand promises, and I think where we've done some work with clients around GEO, that's been really interesting. You can see the penny drop when they present those findings. Um, and it helps them prioritize as well, think about that investment and spend. Um, you know, they're able to see, "Actually, I, I need to be focusing on more on end media," you know. "I need to be experimenting in other areas." So I think that's been a really exciting thing as well. So we should look at all the positives of what's been happening over the last couple of years as well.
Speaker 1: Very nice.
Speaker 2: Exactly that.
Speaker 1: O- one other quick question, though. It's not necessarily a positive, but I, I think it can be transformed into one, which is, you know, there's, there's so much... I'm gonna call it litter, frankly, trash that's on the web, uh, that's off-brand, uh, that's off message, that has been there for many, many, many years, that is actually getting resurfaced because the LLMs. Um, it's confusing the customer journey, uh, that confuses existing buyers. Product names might change, various sort of things might change. Positioning, yeah, 100%, probably is completely changed. Uh, are you finding that when you're working with your clients? Are, are you helping them, uh, try to discover that content, put a plan in place, try to fix things?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly that, and it's, it's really interesting. There's a couple of brands we're working with where when we talk about their LLM strategy and, and how they show up in Search is, um, they know they have really strong brand heritage because of where they've come from, but like with a lot of brands, what they perhaps have once been known as isn't what they want to be known as, and that's where you really have to have that clear strategy. Um, the other piece to go back to kind of how we started this conversation, the litter, the noise, um, where you've got a lot of content coming through that's being created, as you said, lots of stuff that's off-brand, that's not really kind of, you know, cohesive with the story that wants to be told in market. Um, that's where I actually think it's been really interesting to see, kind of seeing the cycle of 12 months ago everyone saying there'd be no role for copywriters, you know. It would evolve. Um, actually, what we're seeing is quite the opposite. Um, you know, we're hi-... We continue to hire copywriters. Has their role trained? Yes. Are they using GPTs across certain workflows? Yes, of course they are. We're working proactively on that to look at how we work across certain brands. But, um, you know, that is still a skill set that's needed, so I think as marketeers, there's a real positive message as well when we think about, you know, AI and all of these kind of challenges because actually it's gonna be that human intervention that's gonna really make the strategy work. Can have a great system in place, but you need to have those good ideas. You need to have, you know, intelligent information going into it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I love that. I mean, the, the copywriters, jour- what am I gonna call 'em?... Say journalists, writers-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... uh, people who sit under that umbrella have, you know, have been threatened, have been under pressure, have lost a lot of work. Uh, so I really like the fact that if you want quality, you still want the human, whether they're an overseer, uh, whether it's, it's part and par. Um, and that there should be a race to the top to avoid sameism. You know, you end up with the same content as everyone else. If I go ChatGPT, "This type of business," um, blah, blah, generate me a white paper-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... I just get the same white paper as everyone else that was asked the same question out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, and remember, it's a, a great time to be average right now, right? Because anything you put in ChatGPT or whatever search you use, you know, says, "That's a great idea" It's a great time to be average
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love how it blows smoke up your ass
Speaker 2: Yeah, It does.
Speaker 1: It does. It does
Speaker 2: It absolutely does. So I think, um, you know, that authenticity and it's the real... You know, it's much like when you think about intelligence and research that we'll do when we're working with brands, there's a real place for it without a doubt. But quite often the best parts of discovery, if I look historically have come out, is where you'll be leading, um, you know, focus groups across client bases, and the real insight comes out in that throwaway remark at the end of a call where someone will say, not answering a question, "Oh, and one more thing," and then you'll get the piece of gold that will absolutely lead their kind of competitor attack. So that's been a really, you know, an interesting takeaway, and I think that continues.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things that stood out actually in the email or message that you sent me on LinkedIn was the ideas of, um, companies who are pulling ahead are the ones where the whole go-to market model was connected. So, you know, looking at that, what's actually working in sync for those businesses?
Speaker 2: There's a couple of brands that I, um, know, that work with that I can see where they, um... It, it, it really is back to basics of the sales and marketing alignment as some of the key things that you see where they have real shared KPIs. I think, like, that's a really simple place to start in it. Um, I think the... In terms of the technology and that kinda connected engine and the workflows of how it works, I think the enterprise brands, some of them, like that have been around for a long time, are struggling 'cause trying to kind of undo that kind of legacy ways of working is just so much harder. I think when I think about some of, like, the tech brands, um, in the AI space that have come into the market over the last couple of years, they have this, like, unique, uh, opportunity to just build their engines from the start, like what technology do they want to use? How do they wanna structure their teams? Um, and I think the team setup is a massive part of it as well. Um, you know, if we look at kind of marketing in PR and events teams which have typically worked in siloed, you know, that's not how our buyer experiences our brand. They don't feel that... You know, they, they don't understand that. They w- want experience. So I think they're the brands that are kind of leaning ahead, are the ones that are, I guess, either, like, have the opportunity to... They're growing quick and they have the opportunity to put it in place, um, or the ones that aren't afraid to make drastic change, I think they're the ones we'll see winning.
Speaker 1: So you've obviously got deep expertise, many years of working with B2B technology clients. Um, are they changing their, their habits? Um, their asks is probably a better way of describing it. So, you know, are the, are the asks that they've got now of their agency partners very different than in the past?
Speaker 2: Yeah, without a doubt. I think, um, you know, before I, the agency that I ran joined Marketbridge, um, you know, historically 10, 10 years ago, it would've been just all around kind of the campaign, the content creation. We moved into activation. Um, if I fast-forward to where we are today, the asks that we get involved in are much closer aligned to transformation, um, change management, and much more around the marketing ops. Um, more consultancy around technology, um, than ever before, and I think that's because ultimately CMOs are turning to people that they trust. It's also about really understanding their world and their brand, um, because I think when a lot of marketers go out and try and seek that advice, it's either, um, not relevant for their buying groups, their sale cycle. There's a lot of generic advice out there. If we look at Geo, that's a really good example where, you know, everyone's excited about being on the Reddit train all of a sudden, and I'm not saying there's not a place for it, but if you drill into verticals, s- that differs massively. Um, and we've just done a great piece of research at Marketbridge that really dives into that. Um, and again, you know, that's a great example where you just... you can't take that generic advice. It's, it's confusing. Um, and they want clarity. You know, there is so much noise out there, so many vendors, so many tech, as I said earlier. So the asks, um, in the same way I, I speak to a few CMOs when I... That have gone into roles, um, reflecting on their first year or two in seat. Say, "You're not really a CMO, are you? You're transformation director. That's your job." Um, and we talk about the progress they've made over, you know, the, the kind of 30, 60, 90 day periods. And I think if you reverse that into the partners that marketing leaders want to work with, it's the same thing. We are helping them transform their business. We are helping them to do that, to achieve the growth that the, the businesses they work for are looking for.
Speaker 1: Are you seeing that most successful CMOs being ... I dunno, T-shaped just sounds old fash- old fashioned and kinda outdated, but a little bit broader, uh, wearing multiple hats. The, the idea of being a chief marketing strategy creative technology officer.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I mean g-... Like no, who, who is this unicorn that exists that is this specialist in all areas? I mean, um, I've been holding some community groups for marketing leaders, um, out of seat. Um, I think that is something that's still very real. There's still a lot of silent restructures taking place, and it is the senior roles that are being hit, and I think part of the reason ex- exactly that, that when I listen to that cohort, um, that community, when they come together They talk about, uh, the interviews they go to and exactly as you say, they're being asked to be a m- How are we gonna... What's our AI strategy gonna be? How are we gonna adopt this? What martech we should be using. Oh, but I also would like a brand campaign, but also I need to know what our metrics will be, and oh, how will we measure ROI on this? So the asks on them are so much, and, um, that was a real reflection for me after some of these, um, community discussions is actually the most interesting way to find out what is expected o- of a CMO is to ask the people who are interviewing for those roles. Um, and quite a few people I know that have held multiple CMO seats for that exact reason are, are deciding to kind of take s- take a step down, to go minus one and to go into a specialist area because, you know, they ultimately feel in a lot of instances they're being set up to fail.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow. Okay. Th- That, that list that you've reeled off certainly doesn't nee- can't exist within an individual. That's service provider, clearly, where you have specialist skills, you have people who built disciplines over many, many, many years.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: You n- you're not gonna find an individual who's gonna be up to speed, highly knowledgeable in all of those areas.
Speaker 2: No, and I think, you know, if you look at an enterprise level organization, there's probably that reality that they're expecting the CMO to be that kind of... that leader, that almost transformation director that I mention, who is bringing in those specialists, who probably has the budget investment to think about that strategy. But if you step down into kind of mid-market and, like, even, like, further into kind of the SMB market, like, that, that doesn't exist. So brands are looking for someone to wear those multiple hats. They want them to be kind of that jack of all trades. Um, and that's really complicated. So that's probably where I spend a lot of my time when I'm speaking to the leaders, like, is kind of just coaching them through that, like prioritization and, and really just being a listening ear. Um, but that's where you get the fascina- fascinating insights in terms of, you know, they are being asked to be the specialists in all areas, um, and, and it's just not possible.
Speaker 1: Mm. You're right. Unicorn top, right, apex creature who is deeply analytical and enormously creative. Um, they're as rare as hen's teeth. Um, moving on slightly. So, you know, you've successfully, I guess, exited your agency business.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, it'd be really good to understand ... I don't really wanna drill into that journey, but the idea of culture, the type of culture that you, you aimed to build within your company that was a smaller business that's been acquired, and then how you've maintained that culture or, or brought that into the, the larger enterprise that you've moved into now.
Speaker 2: So I think there's a couple of bits that come to front of mind, um, and before I say them, first thing I'll say is it is absolutely the hardest part of when you've built an agency that you run and then you move into a new brand. But there's a couple of bits that have made it very easy for me, and the first is, um, I firmly believe the, kind of the direction of travel, um, and the agency that I've run has always been about keeping what the client needs front and center. That's why we exist. That's why we're here, and that has changed. We've just talked about all of it. So for me, I knew when I was running the agency that we were only ever gonna be able to, quite frankly, survive for so long without joining a, another organization that was gonna be able to really meet the needs of the clients that we were conversing with. So we had strengths and specialisms across a lot of the areas, but across that wider go-to-market piece, I knew we would need to drill into the data, the analytics. So to go back to the culture side of that, if you've been kind of educating your team on the journey of, you know, what the commercial realities of the industry are, what the client needs are, you know, across all aspects of the organization, than when you're able to rationalize why you're moving into a new brand, it's much easier. Um, and that's been, um, a really important factor in terms of the rationale of why we made that decision. The second piece I think with culture is, um, and I've always stood by it, is it's not really about the big strategy decks, the big plans that you have as a leadership team. It's not about the big action plan after, you know, your big employee survey. It's, it's really about the small things that happen day to day that build a culture. So, um, that's always, I guess, as a leader, the thing I wake up about and I think about every day. Not perfect, by all means. We're all a work in progress, but if I can do one small thing today or five small things amid the chaos that we're all navigating through, if every leader does that and you model that behavior, that cascades down in your organizations. So it's the small things that make a big impact.
Speaker 1: I often ask this question as, as we're sort of winding up, but, uh, the advice that you would provide for a younger individual, perhaps they're early in their career, um, or perhaps they're just looking to get into the world of, of marketing, advertising, media, tech. Yeah. So what nugget of advice would you like to provide to them?
Speaker 2: So it's very live, uh, conversation in our household 'cause we have a, a 23-year-old and a 20-year-old who are looking for post-university jobs and also work experience university placements actually within the creative industry. So if anyone is after some very intelligent creative writers, um, and someone in the gaming industry, then let me know. Um, but, um, I think my biggest piece is curiosity, um, and just proactivity. So, um, don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Um, people will always give their time. Um, you know, if there's a brand you wanna work for, if there's, um, an industry you wanna go in Seek people out. Ask them if they're happy to do a 15-minute call with you to ask a few questions, um, because it's that proactivity that will make you go far and, and you typ- typically find people are always happy to help others. Um, they want to give advice, and I think, um, if young people can do that and kind of show that proactivity, they're gonna learn some of those insightful things about the realities of the workforce that will help them find that, that journey into employment.
Speaker 1: Great. I'm just gonna ask you a really quick question, but, uh, is there a particular go-to resource for yourself? Uh, or something that's inspired you, perhaps a book or a podcast or, you know, something that's just made you think or perhaps think a little bit differently recently?
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go back to... It's a ter- honestly, it makes me smile every time I-- 'cause it's the thing that comes to mind, and you've gotta just say what you think. So, um, I love, I can't remember the author, but I love the, the woman that set up Nasty Gal, the clothes brand. It's a fabulous story and a fabulous book, and it in- really inspired me because it talks about someone who's gone through setting up a business. You know, they, they did it to essentially pay for an operation that they had to have. They didn't have any money. Um, and they grew a business from nothing into, you know, the billion, like, giant business and organization it is now. And on that journey, there is just all the lessons around how you transition into leadership, how you have confidence as a leader knowing that the people around you, um, are specialists in their areas. And some really incredible just creative innovations that she did to get that brand off the ground, which was just really authentic. She didn't overthink it, and it worked. So that book always stands out to me as just there's just so many nuggets of real, authentic lessons that I still think about today probably, like, five years on having read that book.
Speaker 1: That's brilliant. You've been an incredible guest on the show.
Speaker 2: I've loved it.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time today, Fi.
Speaker 2: Thank you. This has just been the best setting. So, um, if we could come back same time next year, that would be fab.