Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business Marketing. My name's John Horsley. I'm the host of today's show. We're recording live at Cannes Lions. We're in the beautiful surroundings of the Depp Secret Garden. Today, I have a very special guest, which is Rob McLaughlin, who is founder and CEO at AUDIENCES. Welcome to the show, Rob.
Speaker 2: Hey, John. Great to be here.
Speaker 1: Uh, normally ask this in terms of a, a starter for 10, as it were. What attracted you into the, the marketing, advertising, media world in the first instance when, you know, when you were the younger Rob, as it were?
Speaker 2: Um, look, fundamentally, human behavior. Um, the idea that, um, we may implicitly or explicitly be influenced by, by anything. You know, as a kid being influenced by both content and, like, clearly adverts, um, was fascinating, and what did and didn't influence me and the people around me. Um, I just started, as probably many of us did, ask sort of why do some things resonate and why do some, some things not resonate or even turn us off? And, uh, yeah, I just, just carried on kind of making me ask more questions-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... and, uh, trying to understand what was going on inside.
Speaker 1: And way back then, did someone kind of give you a leg up or encouragement in the early days?
Speaker 2: I mean, I've been very lucky. Um, you know, from the early stages of my career when, you know, I... At best all I might have had was youthful energy. Um, yeah, the... I w- I was very lucky to, to work for what today would be called a, a tech startup, um, in the first years of my career. Uh, then was just called a, an early-stage small technology company.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, and, uh, uh, yeah, I... Yeah, it's easy for me to say the CEO and chairman, um, said, "Well, look, hey, I'm, I'm never at my, my desk, and we don't actually have a desk for you, um, so we should just share a desk," which meant that I got a front wai- front row seat to te- yeah, how, how to, to sort of live day to day and run day to day, uh, a business like that. Uh, I... a- and honestly, um, most of it didn't make any sense to me then, um, and it's slowly sort of unraveling itself, yeah, still now, and I'm starting to understand what I saw.
Speaker 1: Great.
Speaker 2: Very helpful.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. What, what brilliant starting position. You get an all-round, you know, cockpit view, uh, and all-round experience. Um, be great for our listeners to understand the, the raison d'être, as it were, behind your business.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, at its heart we saw, and the holdcos and indies were telling us, that less than 3% of the media they were buying was informed by any form of first-party data. And given that as an industry, and at, at Cannes year after year and, yeah, at many other industry gatherings for decades, we've been talking about this industry and, on the media side especially, being data-driven, um, critically that's a lie. Um, it's not.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Um, less than 3% of the media that is put to work is informed by what we know about the consumer, and, um, that's broken. And we just asked the question why. Um, and it was very clear to us that it was a deadly cocktail of data privacy, data security, and the faff, I mean cost and time, of, uh, of doing anything which, which had to do with getting data to media. And, um, we had an idea which we believed would fix that.
Speaker 1: Where do things fall down in businesses? Is it, you know, strategy, systems, ownership, execution, or, or all of the above?
Speaker 2: Mm. So, underlying, uh, our approach, we believe that the data and the technology is almost always there. Okay? And, uh, and there might be an awful lot of whining about, um, the state of the data. My co-founder, Matt, um, calls it a data, data readiness inferiority complex. Um, we think that's rife, and that's very sad for the industry. Um, we're decades in for, with massive investments of, in tech, especially cloud and data warehousing, um, that brands, advertisers, publishers, data vendors... No, they, they've invested enough in that tech. They should be getting something back. Um, so yeah, to your question, more acutely, it's people, and it's attitude, and it's focus, and we believe that commercial objectives and motivations are the fix for all of that. So just, hey, like, how are we gonna monetize? How are we gonna get value from the assets, the data assets that you've got? When you're either spending huge amounts of, of budget in media or you're hoping to monetize your data assets through ad sales, especially if you're a publisher, for example.
Speaker 1: So what are the gaps in, in data that, um, client side, brands for instance, have?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What do those gaps actually look like?
Speaker 2: So those gaps, by the way, are on occasion real, but mostly perceived. Um, and they go in two categories. Um, well, three actually. So, identity. We don't have the identifiers, or we don't have the consented identifiers for our customers. Um, a re- a refrain that our team regularly uses is, "Well, do you, uh, do CRM campaigns? Do you send emails to your customers? And if you do, take us to the person who is running that," and there you have a beautiful source of first-party identity. The second would be the ri- the richness of the data. Um, and there's often a fallacy that, uh, an organization should be chasing, uh, a 360-degree view of a customer- That'd be fucking creepy. Like, other than HMRC, the CIA, and other bodies who we luckily don't and won't work for, um, that no one should have a 360-degree view of the customer. If I'm an insurance company, I've got a narrow but rich view into their risk profile and the products that they might have taken from me. If I'm a, an airline, I've got one of the deepest views into travel behavior and, um, and, uh, location. But I don't know anything about the rest of that person, um, and neither should I expect to. Um, so sometimes it's just bringing them back to Earth on what they should know on a first-party basis, and sometimes introducing them to the second and third parties who can start to color some of that in in a non-creepy way. Um, and then thirdly, it's about, uh, uh, data and technology. Uh, sorry, technology. Um, and like I said before, um, nobody should be buying more technology these days. Um, there's, there's already been a huge amount of it, um, invested in. Um, we should be looking at, how do we leverage the existing cloud and warehouse technology in the existing media budgets?
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was making me think actually. Around about 2003, I used to work with a company called Alterian-
Speaker 2: Hmm
Speaker 1: ... down in Bristol. I forget who they've been acquired by since. They competed with companies like SAS at, at that point, so they were data analytics, uh, technology. Everything that they did was about achieving a, a single customer view, um, being able to do advanced segmentation, uh, and being able to do, uh, the, the Gibraltarian, sort of a, a train of thought process, as it were. Um, so it was very, very advanced for what was actually available then. Uh, and, you know, uh, I was helping them sell, and I was consulting with potential clients, and clients as well, uh, helping them achieve more from, from their data. Uh, I find it remarkable that, that let's fast-forward to 2020, uh, and, you know, I'm looking at businesses that are out there, and the majority of businesses still haven't achieved, uh, a single view of their customers.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's achieving a single view of the customer, or something akin to that, and there's, then there's actually doing something with it. Um, I think it's a special kind of stupid to have all the information and choose not to use it. Um, you know, uh, we call it the activation gap. You've got the permission and the knowledge of the consumer, but you fail to use it. Um, you fail to activate with it. Um, it's tragic. Um, yeah. And, um, so, so, so yeah, data and analytics is wonderful and is not new.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Um, and, um, it's very, very sad that we've, you know, we've gone decades, um, with all of that intelligence, um, and embarrassingly failed to bring it to media.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So look, we're in Cannes. We're gonna take this as a setting, obviously. If we walk down the Croisette, or went, you know, to one of the, the funky beachfronts, or, or perhaps even here in, in the garden, and we bumped into marketing directors or CMOs, uh, I'm sure if we asked them that, you know, they'd, they'd probably say to us, "Well, of course we've got a first-party data strategy." Um, so what are they actually mistaking for progress?
Speaker 2: Hey, look, these people, in the wide majority of cases, are very, very well-meaning, and, and they're our clients, and we love them for that. Um, it's... To your point, it's 2026, um, sure, you should have a first-party data strategy. I mean, they probably had one 10 years ago as well. Um, it's less strategic, and it's more tactical. They should have a first-party data-fueled media plan which is being activated on a daily, quarterly, annual basis. Um, that there's... If, if they're buying search, social, programmatic, digital out-of-home, out-of-home, audio, CTV, normal TV, all of that is much better when it's infused with what they know about the consumer. Um, and to some extent, you know, there's a, there... You could say there's a first-party data strategy behind it. But I worry that, um, it gets dressed up as something strategic which perhaps needs a project or something like that. It's not. It's, um, it's something which needs to be a reflex, um, is that, hey, we go through media planning, and then we flip into media activation. And in the same way that our industry has wonderfully used data and insights to fuel planning, we should be using first-party data to fuel activation. Um, and, uh, yeah, and it's just, and it's just not happened at the scale which, um, marketers need. And then, and that's why, of course, CMOs are our, our greatest, um, our great- uh, well, our, our greatest fans, and they're our clients, um, backed up by their data and technology counterparts.
Speaker 1: Mm. I also understand that you've very much built your business around the idea that customer data should stay inside the organization's own infrastructure. Why is that such a big deal now?
Speaker 2: Hmm. So data privacy and data security, don't worry. I mean, I know it can be boring, and we've all kind of whined on about it for quite a long time. But, um, hey, it's important. You've gotta... You absolutely need to respect, both legally and, I would say even more ethically, the consumer. So pushing that data around and sharing it with third parties that they've never heard of before is deeply problematic and is one of the reasons why, uh, activation language is around that 3% mark. So, so it's so important that the data stays with the organization that the consumer entrusted it to. That's super important. So the, yeah, the advertiser, publisher, or data vendor remains the only data owner, only data processor. Um, and that's, yes, so privacy and security. Um- But it's, it's also the, the, the, the rampant cost of doing anything regarding data. So we've had some massive movements in our industry over the last few weeks and months, um, that the onboarding and identity offerings that this industry has, has, has had available to it have come at gigantic costs. Um, and, uh, and that's really sad when the actual owners of that data, you know, they've always got- they've already got permission from the consumer to be able to use it. So why are they getting taxed in order to get it to media? Our industry always needed to evolve to something better.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, s- something else I'm thinking about is, and I d- I can't remember when I said this, this must have been around about 2007, which is, you know, if data's the, the new oil, why are we so good at just letting it seep th- seep through the cracks? Uh, and why is there such a, a disregard for data within most organizations?
Speaker 2: Uh-
Speaker 1: People would argue that that isn't the case, it's not true. But if you look at any database, it's massively eroded, uh, it's not maintained correctly, information is poorly inputted, certainly within V2V. Um, is this what you see when you're consulting with a client? Do you help fix their data as well?
Speaker 2: So yes and no. Um, and we don't help them fix their data actually.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Um, mainly because the acceleration of data warehousing from the likes of Snowflake-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... Databricks, BigQuery from Google, um, has helped them have much more, like, well-curated data sets and better available data sets than ever before. So I, I, I think that's helped by the way. Um, and, um, what we've said is, "Hey, when you've invested in that type of data warehousing," and, and it's the CTO which will have funded that, we should make like a stakeholder bridge from the CTO to the CMO and say, "Hey, uh, it's time for the CMO to be a stakeholder of the CTO." 'Cause every moment that she or he talks about, um, infusing th- their media plan with first-party data, um, it's the office of the CTO which is going to support. And it's good news, 'cause the CTO has invested, you know, if we're talking a FTSE 250, has invested millions of pounds in data warehousing. Um, money well spent if they're serving a diverse set of stakeholders, and the CMO is a brilliant marquee stakeholder to have. And that's, say, with our work with Snowflake, where we're, where we're so excited to be bridging, bridging that. Um, where, where the s- the, crucially the CMO gets, gets value from the data really for the first time. Um, the CTO gets to support marketing, which, uh, but which is, yeah, fantastic for them. And, um, yeah, the, uh, the, the organization gets the overall value.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you mentioned Snowflake, and obviously congratulations are in order. There was huge news around, uh, your partnership with them-
Speaker 2: Thank you
Speaker 1: ... a- and what you're doing last week. Do you wanna just talk to that a little bit?
Speaker 2: I mean, my absolute pleasure. Yes, um, and it's a brilliant partnership. Um, it's crucially also a, a product launch. So they have the leading data warehousing and AI environment provided to, to their clients. Um, AUDIENCES is now an application inside of that, so just through the, the single click of a button, um, any of Snowflake's thousands of clients can have AUDIENCES capabilities running natively within Snowflake warehouse. It's incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, so, so yeah, it, it's a product launch, um, and it's a meeting of minds, and it's wonderful to see, um, Snowflake and the people of Snowflake going out talking to their clients about this, um, and pulling us in to, to support. Um, it's a, it's f- it, it's great for our business, of course. It's good for the industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's fantastic. And, uh, I also know that you had some similar, I guess, recent news with Experian.
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, we're very excited about that. Um, yeah, Experian doesn't need any introduction to our, our industry, but, you know, just so you know how I see them, they're, you know, they are the, the, the premier owner of identity and, and consumer signals. And, um, for them to choose AUDIENCES as their onboarding and activation partner, um, is fantastic. It's f- absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 1: So I mean, one of the things you talked about there was, you know, literally with Snowflake, you know, at the click of a button and, and so on. Um, so what's become easier, you know, for brands there? So, you know, Rob, just a click of a button, um, that used to be hard and, and you know, or, or potentially slow. So what's that process look like? What, what's become easier?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, what we're doing is because the data al- already lives within Snowflake tables, we're bringing capability to where those tables already live. Um, which means you immediately unlock the privacy and security concerns that organizations have rightly had, and you just fast-forward to activation, um, without a three, six, nine-month implementation period, um, without your teams having to understand a new technology, um, without you having to go through, uh, tortured procurement or information security processes, um, that we talk about in-quarter impact. So, you know, when the CMO is talking about like their current media plan and, let's say, their acquisition targets, um, well, this type of thing direct from Snowflake can impact and deliver on those right now. It's a... And that's, that's why your question earlier when we were talking about first-party data strategy, um, unfortunately I think strategy... To, to us, strategy sounds like something slow and expensive Um, and we like, um, fast and valuable.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So within a, a business, you, you... I mean, you've obviously done a huge amount of consultancy as, as well in terms of your background. Who should really own first-party data activation?
Speaker 2: Well, the, um, marketing, so the office of the CMO for sure. Um, but they need to be best friends with, with the office of the CTO, and, um, yeah, it's, it's never better articulated than by, um, Hannah Fisher, the CMO at Saga PLC, longstanding Audiences client, and Snowflake client as well actually. Um, and we'll be on stage at MAD//Fest in a, in a couple of weeks, um, together talking about this. Um, that her team have the vision, have the creativity to know how to take their proposition to market. Um, but they need a, a best friend in, in their data and technology colleagues in order to be able to do that, and they wouldn't be able to do it without each other. Um, so yeah, that, that, that's, th- that's the marriage which needs to occur. That's how the world's best CMOs and their teams are achieving the outside returns, is by going talking to the teams outside of marketing to be able to get the support they need.
Speaker 1: Cool. Um, just gonna change topic slightly. So you're obviously a, a founder as well. Um, and you've bootstrapped the business. What was that early sort of bootstrapping experience? What did it look like? You know, was it just you on day one?
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Speaker 1: How did you go about building the team and, and building the tech?
Speaker 2: Well, uh, personally, um, I would never, ever have wanted to, to found a business on my own. Um, and that's really a personal decision. Other people do it differently. But, um, it's always relatively lonely at the beginning of a business. Um, by, by choosing a co-founder from day zero, you ensure that you're never completely on your own, and, uh, that's why Matt and I are so important to each other, um, from the very beginning. So we've, yeah, we've never, never been actually on our own with this idea. Um, but it still can feel lonely. Like, it feels, it's felt like, um, us against the world. You know, four years ago we had an idea which we knew was right, but that doesn't mean that it's gonna take in the industry. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's been great to have sort of be together on that. And then choosing our, our, our, our initial team is, is so important. I mean, they're not, they're not normal people, they're exceptional people who have a vision of a grown-up company that they want to build, but are willing to, um, go through the stages where we, where we haven't been grown up, um, where we've been growing up. And, and, and, and yeah, a shout-out to, um, well, to Matt Wilkinson, my co-founder, to Mollie Peake, our head of customer success, who's employee zero and b- has been with us since the very, very beginning, um, to really... You know, she's part of the founding team there too. Uh, so um, so yeah, the, the, it, it's a, it's people business. Um, and, uh, we must never forget that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I will. Yeah. I'm, I'm just thinking of sort of founder experience. So, you know, at those early stages, you're doing every aspect of, of running the business, right? Whether it's finance, whether it's, uh, you're doing all the administration, you know, so on and so on and so on. Uh, how do you decide the, how to sort of divvy out the tasks, the roles, responsibilities between both of you?
Speaker 2: Well, look, accountability is super important, so that's one part of it. I mean, there's two, there's two sides of the same coin, really. Accountability, so m- like say, like hold up your hand and say, "Hey, I'm gonna do that, and it means you don't have to do that." And the other one is always get round a table. So it might sound a bit old school, but we're a deeply, um, present team. Our office environment has always been so, so important to us. So yeah, we have not and will not for the f- foreseeable future, uh, move from, you know, being together four days a week. It's, it's absolutely essential. Um, yeah, but we, in the vast majority of, of challenges and opportunities, we, the first thing we do is get round a table and discuss it together. Um, there's actually a, like a bit of founding lore at Audiences, which is, um, uh, none of us, um, none of us are equipped to be complete individual contributors, um, on our mission. Um, yeah, the... We- we're answering questions and challenges which the industry's never faced before. Um, who would we be to think that we could do it on our own? So, um, being able to, yeah, have, yeah, an exceptional brains trust from the very beginning is super important. Yeah, so.
Speaker 1: In, in terms of the technology, so how... I, I'm kind of curious in terms of how that started. So did it start as a, you know, let's build an MVP, or did it start by consulting with, in essence, client number one, um, and building to a, a particular use case? So yeah, really curious to understand this.
Speaker 2: Retrospectively, you could, we could look back and think that we built an MVP, but, um, we entered the market at the enterprise level from the very, very beginning. Um, uh, yeah, just to explain why, um, to prove our point, um, yeah, Audiences and the concept is, is best proven, uh, at the enterprise level where the advertiser has a large amount of data and a large amount of media spend. Um, so, so w- w- we, we, we, we, we needed, uh, yeah, we, we needed a, uh, we needed clients who fit that bill, so they're always gonna be large enterprise. So our initial version of our product had to be full alpha. Um, it c- it couldn't be an MVP, it couldn't be a beta. Um, when you're putting technology into the infrastructure of an enterprise organization, it can't be sticky tape. It has to be, uh, it has to be the real deal. Uh, that's very hard, though. Um, of course, like that was our f- You know, there was a version number one- Which wasn't as capable as the versions that we've released since. Um, so, so, so it's, it's iteration. But, um, now, uh, yeah, in the world of data and technology, um, you... we believe that you, you need to act like large enterprise, um, and you need to provide all of the protocols and trust which, um, which those clients require in order to be able to work with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, with, with any tech-type business, you obviously have to establish a good product market fit. Um, in terms of categories, did you find that you were gaining or you were winning out in particular categories of clients at, at early, early stage? And, and how long did it take you to actually find that fit?
Speaker 2: Hmm. Well, we're four years in now. Um, and I would say, you know, every day is a school day in terms of, uh, yeah, in terms of that search. In the very beginning, we focused purely on advertisers. So, you know, think, yeah, financial services companies, retailers, um, travel companies, that B2C, and yeah, that, that was important for us to have that focus in the beginning. Um, probably more because of the industry, like publishers and data providers, data vendors, um, have, uh, massively gravitated to wanting to achieve data monetization, um, and audience monetization to drive ad sales. And we've, yeah, uh, that's led our business to very exciting places in the last 12, 18 months. Um, yeah, our, our model is one where we, it, yeah, it's, it's fundamentally a flat fee. There's no vol- volumetric, so it doesn't punish a publisher or a data provider where they're so margin sensitive. Um, and, um, yeah, we've listened to that, and our business has gravitated towards that. So, yeah, we, we se- we, we serve advertisers, um, of course, but, um, we found that our model works really, really well for publishers and, and data providers and, yeah, we've been, we've been keen to sort of to, yeah, to, to move to, to address that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you were previously at Loop Horizon, and you led go-to-market there. Uh, I believe the company grew to around about six million there, thereabouts in revenue, uh, and went through a, a successful, uh, management buyout. What have you taken from, you know, your experience there or, you know, a playbook of sorts that's, that you've been able to carry along on your journey in t- in terms of bringing it with you to Audiences?
Speaker 2: Well, look, like the most formative bit of my career in like the, in the craft I guess of what I do was at, was at Sky previous to that-
Speaker 1: Okay
Speaker 2: ... as head of data across the buy and the sell side. So, like that provides, like re- that was the grounding for then what I went on to do at, at Loop Horizon and the, and now Audiences. Um, making the jump from Sky to founding Loop Horizon was, yeah, that, that was a real chasm to jump, um, and incredibly exciting. So I had that, yeah, and yeah, you, you asked earlier about, um, yeah, uh, about experience of founding. Well, I'm very lucky for Audiences to be the second company that I founded. Um, and to be, to go thr- go through that, that, that experience of, of starting from zero at Loop Horizon, growing it to a significant business, uh, uh, however, yeah, obviously being a services business, um, was, uh, yeah, incredible. Um, and then, yeah, the experience of, yeah, exiting that as well, um, and to some extent gave me confidence in some areas. Um, but others, yeah, Audiences is a very different business.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're a pure play software business. Um, whilst people are important, we're not selling people, we're selling our product. So every day is a school day, as I, I, I usually say. And yeah, um, we're, there, there are things where, where we've learned and we, we can do better. And, uh, and, um, yeah, and I, yeah, we benefit from that. And there are days when we screw up and, uh, and, uh, yeah, 'cause you've just not done some of this stuff before.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I mean, you've obviously got a services business of- as well. So what have you learned from that that I'm gonna say product founders have perhaps overlooked or, or sometimes miss?
Speaker 2: Hmm. Well, my direct experience there is, um, you know, s- you, you can... services can be incredible training wheels for software or product. Um, um, yeah, I, I, I had the experience of, yeah, maybe I was on the end of like 15 or 20 projects with clients where we were teaching them to use cloud and data warehousing to influence marketing, and with the greatest respect, um, yeah, probably each of those projects and our, and our recommendations had about 80 to 90%, you know, similarity to them. Um, uh, and, you know, that is great training wheels for understanding where you might have a good fit for building a product, um, where, um, actually, yeah, you- your, you're, you're meeting every client on a one-to-one basis, providing them what is genuinely a custom recommendation, but, um, actually it's, it's almost the same every time. Well, hey, that, you could, you could achieve the same thing but with software and, uh, you could give them a, yeah, faster outcome and, uh, you can make more money as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You've obviously exited a, a business previously. You're building a new one. The sort of thing that you've, you become, I don't know, less romantic about, as it were, second time around?
Speaker 2: Not for me.
Speaker 2: Maybe other people. But, um, I, I, I am very romantic about it.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: I am very... I'm, I'm, I'm also an optimist. Personally, I, I, I don't think I could do it if I wasn't an eternal optimist.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, I, I love coming to work every day. I mean, it's not difficult this week. I'm coming to work every day-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... and we're in Cannes in the south of France. I mean, it's pretty good. But, you know, going to our London Bridge office every day is a privilege for me. Um- And, uh, getting to work with the people that I've chosen to work with i- is a privilege. Um, so, uh, you know, I mean, that's, uh... Yeah, I, I, I, I love what I do. I love that, um, yeah, uh, my eyes were opened, you know, previously to, to the fact that, you know, a normal person like me could start a business. Um, you know, success is not a guarantee. Um, it's a rollercoaster all the time. So, you know, that's a completely different topic, but the fact that, um, the fact that, the, the fact that, hey, normal people can start, whether it be a services business or a software business. You know, uh, Matt and I love to talk about the fact, you know, we're two guys from South London. I believe, like, like, you know, he's from South East London, I'm from South West London.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: There's massive differences between us in, in that case. But, but, uh, but, um-
Speaker 1: I have a rule.
Speaker 2: Go on.
Speaker 1: Never go south.
Speaker 2: There you go. There you go.
Speaker 2: Well, it's good news for us 'cause neither of us into football, so-
Speaker 1: Ah
Speaker 2: ... so we're not, we, we can't draw any lines there. But, um, but, uh, yeah, it's, um, it's really special.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's re- it's really special. And, um, and it turns out, yeah, in either of the businesses, the more, um, you're genuine and open up about yourself, uh, the more people in most cases gravitate to, um, you and your organization and your idea-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... um, and are willing to spend time trying to understand it. And yeah, we really appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's really cool. Yeah. I'm j- I'm just thinking about the founder's journey and, and the, the DNA of, of founders as well. I mean, people often look at founders and think, "Well, you know, that's all right for them," you know, and whatever else. But what they fail to see is all the stress, all pressure, um, that you put yourself under. Uh, the weight that you carry, the, the weight of responsibility. Um, you know, and, and that responsibility is, you know, often to your family. Um, and then outside of that responsibility to people that you employ. Uh, the family, in essence, that you, that you build, that you carry along a- a- across that journey. Many people don't see the aspects of being a, an entrepreneur or f- a founder of business. Certainly not if they're perhaps employed at a slightly later stage of growth.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, John, you must feel it yourself as well. And, uh, I... You know, th- there's no part of my story which is a sob story. I mean, like, yeah, yeah, it's choice. I had a, um, very, um, good but, right, you could probably objectively say boring corporate career until I was 35. Um, yeah, I'm thankful for that. I got loads of experience from it. Um, but yeah, I was... You know, I'm not a s- you know, I, I don't think... In most cases, like, founders aren't a specifically different animal than, um, anyone else. And I was a, a, a pretty happy corporate citizen working for, like, Canon, Barclays, Sky. These are great organizations-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... and I'd highly recommend-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... um, people work within environments like that. Um, uh, it should... But yeah, I'm the same person who was relatively, um, yeah, good fit in those organizations, who then is now second time around, um, after one successful exit, and yeah, AUDIENCES is objectively a successful so- software company. And I, I, you know, d- uh, I find, yeah, it, it, it's... I think the door's open. Um, it's just a choice, and I understand why people wouldn't want to do it. Um, but I, I understand, you know, if people think that there's a gap in the market and maybe personally they know that they would enjoy, uh, a higher level of freedom, that they, they would get in, in another job, um, then, um, yeah, I, I would always encourage. I do always encourage people to, to, you know, to, to explore starting a business, and you'd be amazed... Uh well, you wouldn't be, but people would be amazed. Um, it, you know, set up the fundamentals of a business takes all of 15 minutes. Uh, the UK, for all of its challenges, has always been an in- like, hotbed of entrepreneurship, and you can set up a limited company in the snap of fingers. Um, banking is incredibly open, and then it's just all down to you. And I think people lose perspective that the rest of the world is not that free. Uh, the UK is incredible. Despite all of our economic financial challenges, um, your ability to be able to start an organization, um, and get to work is unfettered in comparison to anywhere else.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, let's, let's hope we don't get more of a land grab, uh, against small, medium-sized businesses-
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're giving me a bit of fade there, John, but, uh-
Speaker 2: ... I, I would happily take it. But I'll, I'll, I'll let you throw the bait another time perhaps.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's fine. Um, you know, God, it would be great, I, I believe, frankly, if, if the government created a better environment, uh, and, and greater support for, for smaller, uh, enterprises, um, and help support them more on their journey. That day may or may not come.
Speaker 2: It's diffi- it's difficult. Look, Matt and I run AUDIENCES, um, both despite the UK government's, um, actions we believe, like, against founders, entrepreneurs, and, uh, growth-orientated companies. Um, we, you know, we fi- we fi- we find it, um, confounding that, um, the, uh, a government which wants to, um, spend so much on, um, on, on, on-
Speaker 1: Filling the black hole-
Speaker 2: ... social services
Speaker 1: ... that, that they make bigger.
Speaker 2: Look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look. We, we, we, we think... Look, yeah, it's deeply political, but we, we, we, we, we think that healthcare and benefits are very important. We believe in the safety net.
Speaker 1: Of course.
Speaker 2: We believe... No, we don't, it doesn't have to be of course, but we do believe in the NHS for all, uh, uh, uh, and all of that. But we also believe it needs to be financed, and we see firsthand, um, that when we make money... And the, we, uh, our North American clients, for example, pay us, and, uh, that money then goes into the UK economy. Uh, that's incredible. We should be doing... People like us and all of us should be doing more of that, and then we'd have more in the coffers to be able to spend on the people who need it the most in our country. Um, so yeah, I, I think we, you know, we're pushing forward, you know, despite- Um, some of the headwinds that, uh, that the government have woefully put on. Um, and we do it for the UK economy. So regular, and Cannes this year is no different, there are plenty of bros who approach you and say like, "Hey, look, why are you running your company in, in the UK? You should, you should-
Speaker 1: Yeah, GCC.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. You should go live in Dubai-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... and, uh, you know, zero tax, et cetera. Um, uh, we're here to turn the UK into a better country for ourselves, for our families, for our children, for everyone we know, but we're not going anywhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We're not going anywhere. We're fiercely independent and proud, uh, to be in the UK. And by the way, uh, an idea like AUDIENCES could never have come from any other country, um, with our context of GDPR both in and out of Europe, um, and our close ties and understanding of North America. Um, it's... It, it's, it's a, it's a uniquely British perspective-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... which gave us our start. Um, there's nothing attractive to us about, uh, any other, uh, any other region to operate, or to operate from.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think we're aligned on that point of view. Um, in terms of, you know, scaling your business, employing individuals, what kinds of attributes do you look for, look for in, in the types of people that you're employing? Uh, and do you, do you look at, you know, the, the people that you've employed within the business as, you know, kind of family as it were, and the types of culture that you're trying to create?
Speaker 2: Hmm. So the- first of all, it's pretty easy. I, I would say not family.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Um, actually. In, in a lot of cases everyone has their own families, and that's wonderful.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: And we love meeting each one of, you know, b- wherever anyone wants to. And by the way, like a... it's probably relatively well known, it's pretty hard to come to our office and not meet a member of my family. So-
Speaker 1: Oh, really?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Whether it's, yeah, whether it's my partner, whether it's my kids, you know, um, yeah, the, in the end, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll meet one or some of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, I encourage other people to do that, um, within the team. I think that's lovely. And, you know, and, and, and, yeah, we're close. But, um, you know, uh, the- there's work and there's family, and I want our team to be able to draw that line. Um, so to, so, so, so, so I probably like stylist- like stylistically choose not to use that word, um, 'cause it's got some, some deeper meanings. Um, uh, but, um, yeah, what we hire for, um, you, you need to have a hunger to want to change something in the industry. Um, and you need to have a hunger to want to achieve something for yourself personally. Um, not everyone has that, um, and there's great places for those people in other great organizations, um, but not at AUDIENCES. You, um, you, you, you need to be relatively fearless to take on challenges which, um, like, like data activation, intermedia-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... which, um, people have failed at for decades. And, um, and be ready to try and succeed on it with us. Um-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... many of, many, many people will have met the people of AUDIENCES already. Um, there's not a type, which I bloody love. Um, yeah, so yeah, Matt and I are very, very different from each other even though we've got also so much in common. Um, uh, you know, people, many in our industry will know and love Helen Moussad, who's our VP of marketing. Um, you know, Molly, our head of customer success, Hugh, who joined us from, from LiveRamp. You know, w- these are the best people for the job. They all have the hunger and have the desire to make our industry better. Um, but they all, we all come from v- very different, uh, backgrounds and perspectives. Um, and, uh, we see that as gigantic strength, and I'm, I'm so proud to introduce people to, uh, our team. Um, and I think, and the, like the last few days in Cannes has been an amazing place to do that, right? There are five of us here this week, um, the, the ones I mentioned actually. That's why they're so fore in my mind. And, um, yeah, I just, yeah, there, there's often a better person to answer a question-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... or talk about AUDIENCES than me at the table, and I just love being able to throw it over to any of them.
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you a final question, but I'm gonna ask you something before that. So we're, we're obviously in Cannes this year. Have you felt it's slightly different this year versus previous?
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: In terms of the, the conversations, where we're-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... you know, where we're at, um, the opportunities, what people are interested in now versus perhaps a couple of years back.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say two things. Um, 'cause, one, we've had a brilliant time, and commercially it's been very, very rewarding for us to be here. Um, um, there's optimism and there is willi- a willingness to act and to build, which, uh, I didn't... That even, even I, I'm seeing this year even more than last year, which I absolutely love. Um, the, um, the North American counterparts have brought larger teams-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... and opened themselves up to spending more time with more people here than ever before, which is just great news for us, both clients and partners. It w- just brilliant news for us. So, so that, you know, people have come here, like ready to do business, and I, I absolutely love that. Um, I do think there's a, there's a, there's a... I won't have been the first person to say this. Um, we're, as an industry, we're not talking about, um, sustainability or, uh, human rights like we previously did.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Mm, um, I said observation.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I said observation. I think probably, uh, is, um, driven by, you know, political environments on both sides of the Atlantic. But I think it's interesting that, um, uh, things that we said were- Most important in previous years, um, don't even see- seem to be on the agenda this year. Um, I... It's just, uh, that's an observation.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's just an observation.
Speaker 1: That is, that is well observed. I do like the idea that there is more, um, optimism. 100%, that really is coming through, which is great, you know, consider- considering that the economy's not been in a great place and so on. Um, and when I've spoken to people, generally over the last couple of years, uh, in the UK market, it, it feels like there's a bit of a sort of hangover of something there.
Speaker 1: Um, lack of autonomy in terms of being able to make a decision and being able to invest in something. Um-
Speaker 2: Tryn- I would say-
Speaker 1: ... that bit is going away at this point in time, which is great, and there's feels like there's a lot more passion coming back to people as well, which is brilliant.
Speaker 2: Uh, I, I agree. I think we've turned a corner somehow. Um, but also it's a- that, what is it? The rising tide lifts all boats. Uh, a growing economy-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... both in, like, Europe and the US, you know, the industry's all gonna do well. I mean, yeah. I mean, we probably all like that. I'm sure we'd all like that, but that's not really very complimentary. Back to us as practitioners, what we, we, we slap ourselves on the back when the economy's easy. Um, and c- we're, we're better than that. I, I, I think, I, I, I, I think people have realized that we need to innovate and we need to fix problems. Um, and if we do that, our industry can still be in growth even if the economies we work within are not. Uh, uh, and, and I think that's the optimism maybe after a couple of years of, um, getting bored of looking at charts with downward, um, trajectories, um, of like GDP and things like that. And, uh, and actually we're like, "Okay, well, let- let's..." I, I mean, that might be me being overly optimistic. I, I do th- I, I, I do think we've gone like, "Hey, look, w- we've gotta make this work."
Speaker 1: Well, exactly. And the conversations I've had with people, not just, you know, here on the show, um, but ar- around Cannes, it does feel that, you know, people are actually now getting sensible budgets back, start- starting to invest again and starting to build their, you know, i- invest in building their businesses of all sizes, which is, which is fantastic. Uh, one last question, which is, uh, advice for a younger individual. So the younger person, they might just be a graduate at this point in time, or perhaps they're at really early stage of their career. They're looking at kind of the landscape, maybe marketing, media, advertising, or tech. What piece of advice would you offer them, um, at that early stage?
Speaker 2: Mm. I'd probably do my best to just lay out some ingredients for them to pick over. So, and something which I can genuinely talk on, and they can choose to take it or not, is that, "Hey, look, I, um, I'm the founder of a software company. Um, h- however, I studied, um, a humanities degree, a politics degree. Um, I then found it very difficult to purpose that into anything useful in the job market. But it didn't mean that I didn't find a job. So I was an estate agent for a year after university, and I bloody loved it. Um, and nothing brought me more pleasure than getting up early six to seven days a week and, uh, learning about sales and what it is to build a pipeline." Um, so, so, so, you know, there are opportunities available, um, there. And then if you go, uh, with an open mind and just that I, you know, just try and be useful to people who are building businesses, um, that when I joined BrightTalk, who were acquired by Informa, who are here this year as well, you know, these people trying to build a business and there was, there were multiple places for, um, 21, 22, 23-year-olds who, um, who were a bundle of energy and could just do what they were told, uh, like we did. And, um, and by the way, there, there are plenty of opportunities in businesses like, like AUDIENCES for people like that as well, and I, I would s- I would seek those out. But, you know, it's difficult. You know, I, I, um, you know, I, I'm, I would never pretend it's, it, it's not as hard as it is for like graduates, et cetera, or, you know, school leavers. Um, but, um, I think don't have a fixed view. Be open-minded. Um, don't listen to the influencers on, um, Instagram and LinkedIn. Um, come and talk to, uh, you know, the, uh, probably less glamorous, uh, um, actual, uh, people who are doing this, and, uh, hopefully we're, we're more approachable anyway. And, uh, you'll probably draw some, um, yeah, some, find some things that we've got, we've got in common.
Speaker 1: Very sage.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Speaker 1: True. Brilliant advice.
Speaker 2: It's kind. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us in the show today.
Speaker 2: Oh, my pleasure.