Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: Welcome to this edition of the Business and Marketing recorded live here at Cannes Lions. I'm really delighted to welcome Sarah Robertson from Experian to this episode. I think when I think about it, this is a conversation about sort of the gap between having data and turning it into something useful. You know, it's the old adage of, you know, "I don't need data, I need insight." Sarah's gonna help us kind of cross that rubric, and I suppose she's worked in agency, consultancy, account leadership, insight, and now product. You know, and I think, you know, we're gonna talk about sort of where businesses are getting stuck, you know, what changes when data becomes a product, and what it really takes to kind of build something customers will actually kind of pay for and value rather than just sort of admire or aspire to. So, without further ado, Sarah, welcome to the, uh, to the show. It's great to have you here.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: So let's, let's get sort of really into this. Um, a lot of people sort of talk about sort of, you know, this difference between kind of insight. You've spent so much time in data, insight, and marketing. Where do you think kind of brands get the handover wrong between knowing something and then doing something with it?
Speaker 2: I think sometimes they start with the wrong question. For me, it's like, what are you trying to drive? What's the outcome that you're really trying to, to drive? And actually thinking about that and thinking about your hypothesis. I started my career in stats as an analyst, so it was all about creating a hypothesis and, and proving it or disproving it through analytics and data. So the outcome has to drive everything, and then you can design the insight, and then you know what the data needs to be to, to drive that insight and outcome.
Speaker 1: And is there still an issue about sort of, you know, in a, in a world where, you know, we can sort of capture everything, you know, where data is just a, you know, an endless kind of endless supply, you know, um, do we still need to kind of think about sort of, you know, that, that data layer before to, you know, kind of rubbish in, rubbish out type thing?
Speaker 2: It's always rubbish in, rubbish out. So, so good quality trusted data is, is where you've got to start really, uh, and it's not more data drives better outcomes. It's the right data and the quality of data that will drive the outcomes for your organization. And I think sometimes you find because of the disconnect with some of very large organizations, they've got the chief data officer, they've got the chief marketing officer, and then quite often they've got the technology o- officer, and they're all driving at slightly different things, and they're not really thinking about the single outcome that the business is trying to drive. And so you've got this mismatch of what they're trying to achieve, and you, you've, you often find that people are looking at technology, so they're not looking at technol- they're looking at the technology, and they will implement a new system or data lake, but they won't think about the data that's going into it, and they won't think about the outcomes that it's trying to drive as well. So it's, it's really moving that round for these organizations to, to think, "We need to drive X," or, "We need to drive Y. This is our, this is the outcome," and therefore creating the strategy around that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You pretty much could stop anyone here at Cannes and, and ask them, and they're, they're all gonna say that they're insight led. Um, but in practice, kind of what does that look like when it's, when it's meaningful and real versus what it looks like when it's just words?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a great conversation with someone last week around this and, and quite often you find that people... Like segmentation is still a great tool to use because you understand your customers, you can apply it to the market. But quite often you find that it's not ingrained throughout the organization, throughout all the channels, and they don't... And when we talk about segmentation, there's lots of different types of segmentation, and creating those different types of segmentation so that you can segment not necessarily to one, but you can drive that strategy through the organization and, and, and measure that through, is where a lot of these organizations fail because they're pulling at different outcomes. So, so create your segmentation, understand how each of those differ, how you're gonna drive your marketing strategy into those, how your cha- marketing channels work, how you're gonna measure each of those, and that's really where you get the, the gold.
Speaker 1: When you think about your kind of career, you know, we've gone through these various kind of paradigm shifts, right? Sort of in, in many ways in terms of, you know, social, mobile, et cetera, et cetera. Kind of do we have now kind of almost, you know, kind of the, the holy grail of, of data sets or, or, uh, or, or, you know, is there still something kind of, um, that we're all aspiring to kind of have as part of our data lake?
Speaker 2: I, I think the data's still quite disparate-
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... really. And actually how do you connect all of those dots? Because as we've got more and more channels available, then the identities that are across all of those channels can vary. So, um, people have multiple email addresses, so generally a person can have four or five email addresses. The email address that they give to their bank, say, is very different to what they will- might give to their loyalty card or when they sign up for certain newsletters. So, so even at that sort of email address layer, that can be very disparate as well. So, so I think a lot of organizations still need a reasonable identity spine, and I think that's really then where it starts, and then you can start to layer on all the different data sets. So we... And you've also got to remember, a lot of these organizations are still, like the heritage organizations that have been in the UK a long time or, or other markets, are still on legacy systems sometimes. They're still on mainframe systems. They're still, they're not necessarily fully cloud enabled yet because it takes a long time to transform your organization, so they do need to get the foundations right. You can't build on sand.
Speaker 1: And has kind of AI, you know, in, in its broadest sense sort of, you know, enabled us to look to make sort of perhaps leap forwards in that regard in terms of orchestration layers and connecting up things that couldn't be connected in that sort of siloed way?
Speaker 2: I think AI will definitely help.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: It helps the speed that you can transform, because if you think about it from just an, a data engineering perspective, you can create code so much quicker than you could ever before. So, so actually in terms of transformation, things are getting a lot quicker. But you still, you still need the data in the right frame. I mean, I always think about, like, AI is an engine. Data is the fuel that you put into it, a- and we all know what happens if you put diesel into a petrol car. It, it... the engine se- seizes up. But you also need a driver of that vehicle, so you need the human really to be driving what the AI is doing and making sure that the right fuel gets put in that vehicle.
Speaker 1: That's... I love that. That's a great, that's a great metaphor. I'm gonna steal that one. Um, let's talk about sort of, you know, where, you know, a little bit about where data kind of, um, you know, moves and becomes a product. You know, you've, you've sort of made that sort of shift of leading data insight into the chief product kind of seat. What, what sort of changed for you, you know, when it, when you- when the job started being about building a product rather than sort of advising on them?
Speaker 2: It, it's really interesting. Actually, product's quite a complex role. I think people don't quite understand the complexities of, of what we go through, especially within an organization like Experian. We have a lot of gates to go through to, to get a product on mar- to market. So we still always start with the customer and the customer need, so really understanding and that... understanding what customers want, and that's why I'm here. Like, that's why product have got a presence i- in Cannes, so that we can talk to customers, we can listen to them. But also understand they might have a need, but do they value that need? So will they pay for that? Quite often we talk to customers and they'll say, "Oh, yeah, I'd, I'd love that." And then you go, "How much would you pay for it?" "Mm, not a lot." So, so as a product person, that wouldn't work. And then once you've gone through and understood that product need, that's when the hard work starts, but you've got to have that grounded. So we've got to, obviously, with a data product, understand, um, the regulatory framework for that product. You've got to then build the product, so you've got to understand how that's gonna do. If we've got the right systems, how can you operationalize th- that, and how will you serve that out to the market? And that serving a data product out to the market is getting more complex as well, because clients now want to use platforms like Snowflake and Databricks, and they want the data in those environments where their data is. So that's becoming more complex. And then it's not a build it and they will come, so then you've got to think about what is your sales and marketing strategy. How can you really push that out to market, and then what's the scale-up of that product before it gets peaked? So with my background, understanding insight, so understanding how you build statistical models i- is really great and w- for a data product. Um, having client management experience-
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... and actually doing all of that, that really helped me understand how we take a product to market and how the sales team and what they need. And then that grounding or consultancy helps you right at the start to be able to question a client to understand the value that they bring. So my career in some ways has naturally brought me to this conclusion of being in product.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's really interesting when you sort of break down the kind of the competency skills, experience, you know, expertise of a, of a kind of product leader and, you know, you kind of seem to have it kind of down pat in that regard. So a, a brilliant sort of perspective I think that you can bring, right, when you, when you're-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... kind of in the role you're in. Let's talk a little bit about the kind of the, the, the roadmap. You know, and you... obviously you talked about being kind of customer-centered and so forth, but sort of, you know, with velocity being the speed it's at now, sort of how do you go about kind of building out kind of, you know, a, a product roadmap in 2026 and beyond?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so it's really interesting. It's... 'cause what we've been doing over the last few years is we've been doing some foundational stuff, but as I said earlier, you can't build on sand. So, so getting the foundations right i- is super important. And then once you've done that, that's your big transformation. You can then b- iteratively build quite quickly, so you can test and learn because you've built the foundation, so then it allows you to feature build on top of that. So that's really where most product organizations want to get to. They want to be able to release client value very quickly in an agile manner and be able to test and learn. So, so that's, that's really where we've come, and actually expand in markets as well. So we're looking how can you expand into other markets.
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about sort of the usefulness of the, of the insight, I suppose, in a sense, and maybe, maybe with a bit of an Experian lens on. If you need to, you know, talk about sort of y- cases that are, you know, anonymous and, or more general, totally understand. But tell me a little bit about kind of like, you know, that sort of, you know, putting the kind of the insights into practice. What, what have you found that sort of, you know, has either been surprising or delightful that's really moved the needle for your customers?
Speaker 2: So it's interesting. A, a few years ago I did a project before I join- joined Experian, and we were using Experian data, 'cause obviously it's well ingrained within the industry, and I was doing a, a piece of work for a travel company, and we actually found that the financial product, so the financial mosaic that we have as an organization, worked better than the demographic version. So it's, it's actually understanding it, and when you're looking at insights, throw in as much data as you can and then really narrowing that down to sort of the useful amount of data so you can turn that around within the organization. We did something for a CPG when I was at Experian, building models to say, like, actually identify people who bought crisps and dr- certain drinks. And I was like, "Those models are never gonna work 'cause everybody buys fizzy drinks and crisps at some time." But they actually were really performant, which really surprised me. I didn't think we were gonna get the discrimination that we did. So, so there's sometimes when you get positive, um, feedback as well.
Speaker 1: Let's just think about the sort of the geographic kind of side of things. I mean, you talked about sort of, you know, compliance, regulation sort of earlier. But in Experian's obviously a global business, you know, you know, your acquisition in the US, and, and you know, you're operating in Au- Australia, I think-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... and, and moving into kind of Europe. Um, exciting times. Kinda how does that change the way that you think about sort of, uh, going to market now?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we've got a global product called Worldview. Um, and that was really important to- for us to get that product out to market, because we were finding more and more that there's these large global retailers, those large, like, global ad tech organizations. You can only see today at, at Cannes how many global organizations. And they want consistency. So they want a consistent view of, of the world, uh, or in key markets. So actually, that really changes your thought process of how you've got to bring products to market, because they want this consistency in how you can do that. You've then got to consider the r- different regulations in each market, which is why, for that particular product, we, we built it deliberately with non-personal data so that we could roll it out to as many markets as possible.
Speaker 1: And thinking about the kind of the, you know, the ultimate kind of customer, um, what, what, what are people sort of, um, you know, getting it wrong about sort of when they're, when they're, when they're putting data in front of customers?
Speaker 2: I think they talk about the data and not the outcome.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So you find that a lot with, with the da- data organizations. This, it, the data isn't the exciting bit, it's really what you can do with that data. So it's like, actually, we have driven this outcome. We have driven, this is what it means, this is how you can use that data, this is, this is the marketing that you can do, this is the wastage, the money that you can save, and it's changing that narrative from, this is a great piece, like Mosaic's a great piece of segmentation, to, this is how it can help your organization.
Speaker 1: You talked about sort of the travel kind of example. You've worked across financial services and insurance, you know, loyalty, you know. When you think about sort of, you know, the different kind of verticals and sectors, you know, what changes? Uh, and also, I suppose in a sense, like, what comes up again and again?
Speaker 2: So I think what comes up again and again is that you expect people to have more sophistication, and you expect some of these large organizations to be very sophisticated, but that's when you find that actually they're, they're built in legacy. So, so it's, it's more difficult. I think one of the things that attracted me to marketing was actually there's a, there's a lot of psychology and consumer psychology. I think that gets missed sometimes. And actually understanding why people are purchasing, especially in financial services. No one goes out and goes, "Oh, I know I'll have a great credit card," and applies for a credit card. There's a need that goes behind that, and understanding that need understands your marketing, understands the data that you need to drive that marketing. So it's, it's going from the need of a consumer into your strategy, and I think that's, that's the always the thing that's interesting about our industry.
Speaker 1: Um, you know, we were talking before we started recording also about Brazil, and you know-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... how exciting a kinda market that is right now. Um, and obviously there are other very exciting markets elsewhere in the world, just to be really clear. But, um, tell me a little bit about kind of what you're seeing from a kind of behavioral kind of perspective ac- ac- across the world. What's, what's really kind of exciting you right now in terms of shifts in consumer behavior or market by market differences?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there's a lot of difference in culture-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... still around the world, and I think we talk about a multicultural society, but people still go into cultural norms. They still behave in different ways. Um, can you repeat the question? Sorry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2: I just got lost there.
Speaker 1: No, that's all right. No, no. Um, y- we, we, we were talking just before the, before we started recording about Brazil and how dynamic a market that is, and I, I was just really keen to kind of just get your perspective on what are you seeing sort of around the world from, from a behavioral perspective, um, you know, from your insights that's really exciting you at the moment?
Speaker 2: So I think it's the, the change of behaviors that we're seeing in terms of the co- the economies that are growing, like Brazil.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: We talked about Poland as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's got a really great economy, and, and actually these are the, gonna be the places to watch. Um, they spend differently. They spend on different things. They, they have obviously different holiday seasons. So all of that comes into the marketing that our, our organizations do and behave.
Speaker 1: You talked about sort of the fact that you've had this really interesting career in terms of being kind of, you know, in, in a variety of different roles, including consultancy. How has, you know, seeing that problem from all three sides changed the way that you sort of make decisions now, uh, as a, as a product leader?
Speaker 2: So I always tell my team that it's all about the customer. So I think that, that as a product leader is something that I've brought in and instilled within our organization, that we need to be customer-led in everything that we do, and I think that's really where consultancy has driven me forward. I think I alwa- I, I'm not... I make decisions, so again, as a consultant, when you work in consultancy side, you have to make a decision, and you're very short on time, so you run a certain speed as well. So I'm happy to say yes or no, right, really quickly. Let, let's, what's the information? What, what we make it? What are the risks if we do something like this? Is it a low risk or is it high risk? If it's a low risk, let's just try it. So experimentation is also really important.
Speaker 1: That's a really interesting point, and it's funny, folks that have come from kind of more the kind of services side into product have that kind of sense of, like, time is money.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: Basically ingrained in them, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, let's talk a little bit more about the kind of customers, 'cause here, you know, here we are in Cannes. You have this fantastic kind of, um, setup here for Experian. What are the kind of conversations that you're having with your customers here right now?
Speaker 2: Well- A lot about identity. I think identity is still really key to a lot of our customers, and, and we've built our graph, et cetera, so we're, we're, we're on that journey. And then into measurement. There's w- I think that's the difference that I've seen probably from two or three years ago. I think there's a lot of discussion around outcomes and measurement, and I think as the economy changes in, in these different markets in the UK, marketers want to see the ROI of their campaign. So that's what we're seeing quite a lot of through the Cannes this year.
Speaker 1: And yeah, you talked about sort of, you know, customer first and customer centricity, of course, you know, and you... I just wanted to kind of play devil's advocate for a moment because if you ask them what they want, they often say faster horses. You know, what, what do you kind of recommend, or how do you approach, you know, a conversation with a client, uh, or a customer where, you know, what they're asking for is perhaps, you know, gonna lead them to a potential kind of, you know, um, misaligned outcome, I suppose, is a good way of phrasing it?
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's a really interesting question. You have to demonstrate that you've, you've understood what they want, and then it's making sure that you question them to get on that journey to make them realize that what they want isn't actually what they need. So it's, like, asking them. There's a, there's a theory around the five whys. So actually asking why five times, and then you do the opposite, how, how, how. So i- it's really those consultancy techniques can help you really drive to the, the heart of the problem. Because if someone comes to you and they go, they want an identity graph, for example. Well, why do you want an identity graph? Why is it like that? Why do you need this? Why do you... And it really then, um, opens up that issue.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the team briefly earlier, but I wanna kind of zero in a bit more on that one. You know, building teams that can kind of join the dots and sort of, you know, very much kind of follow your kind of philosophy and that of Experian. When you're building teams sort of today i- in this kind of work, you know, kind of what for you sort of, you know, are the skills that, you know, competencies, call it whatever you want, that really matter the most?
Speaker 2: So it's really changing-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... with the onset of AI.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Um, so I'm bringing someone into my team who hasn't got any product experience, for example, soon. So, so now the skills that I'm looking for are emotional intelligence, I think that's becoming increasingly important, um, critical thinking, and commerciality. So those are the, those are the skills that I'm looking for. Don't think any of those you can really teach in the same way. I can teach someone how to fo- follow a product framework if they're bright enough. That's not an issue. It, it's those are the softer skills that are really coming to the forefront.
Speaker 1: And how do you go about finding those people?
Speaker 2: It's really difficult. So yeah, we do... We're quite harsh. Like, we have some really harsh interview techniques. We do, in o- one of our interviews, we make them do a test, and they have half an hour to come back and present that to us. Um, uh, we really look at whether someone's using AI. I once did an interview with a lady who was quite clearly using AI, um, and when was questioned to talk about examples for a competency-based, um, questioning, couldn't answer them and had to leave and, and answer the door because she was just reading off a phone. So you have to be really mindful of how you interview and the process, and we have got a great talent acquisition team as well that really help bring those people through.
Speaker 1: And what do you sort of see as being kind of, you know, the next round of kind of product opportunity being in this space?
Speaker 2: So, um, the next things we're looking at is obviously expansion into other markets. That's really important f- for us right now. Um, and measurement and containerizations of applications. We... Not only do we have data products, we have software products, and we're building those software products into various environments as well to help clients with their first-party data onboarding, which I think is, people more and more want to use first-party data to drive their activity.
Speaker 1: And if you're in a kind of situation where you're sitting down here with a, a, a CMO or a founder and y- they're looking for some advice on how they go about getting more value from their data, where would you tell them, what, where to start?
Speaker 2: I would tell them to start looking at their data quality. So is the data fit for purpose? Because if it isn't, you're gonna drive the wrong outcome. So start with that. If it is really good quality, look at how you can drive, um, activity into the different campaign platforms. So how you... What's your channel strategy? What... Really understanding your segmentation as well. So those things are really important. So what you're trying to drive, what's the segmentation, what channels are you therefore going to use, and have you got enough data to be able to use those effectively?
Speaker 1: Let's talk about sort of, like, you know, product and, and sort of, you know, we, we talk a lot about sort of silos and, and sort of, you know, working with marketing, working with sales and, and the rest of the kind of org. How do you kind of like to kind of structure kind of that relationship with the rest of the business?
Speaker 2: So we're really close to our sales team, which is, is really good. I mean, we're, we're here today with them, and I think that's really important to have a really strong relationship-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... because you c- you can't build something and expect it to sell. So actually having, having the sales voice into the product is really important. Although we don't take them as the customer because obviously they're looking at revenue, and they're looking at revenue generally in the short term. So we have to be broader than, than just look, looking at, um, our sales team as customers. And then we have to have really strong relationships with our people in legal because they need to understand we need to build privacy by design. So, so those are the key relationships that we have to build, and obviously our finance team so that w- they'll pay for it. So a- around the bus- which is why emotional intelligence is so important within product, because if you don't get the right people that can build those relationships, then you won't drive the right product outcomes because you won't be able to move the product quick- forward quickly enough.
Speaker 1: And as this is a podcast which is called The Business of Marketing, I have to ask you about the relationship between product and marketing, too.
Speaker 2: Yes. So we, again, we have got someone great in our product marketing team. Um, they're really good at turning the value. So we explain to them what we're trying to do, and they drive that message, and they really move that forward in terms of what the product can do. They used to be in my product team, so they used to be a product manager, so they really appreciate how we build a product and, and they really... So, so again, making sure that you keep those stakeholders involved throughout is key.
Speaker 1: And, you know, as a product leader, you know, do you, you... How far do you think you've got to now where, you know, you're, you're almost kind of practicing what you preach, you know, from within Experian?
Speaker 2: Um, there's always more to do. The, there's, there's constantly changing, um, goalposts. So I'd say I'm probably about 50% to where I want, want to be in terms of our, um, product operations because it's always take long- like, takes longer in a large organization.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, here we are in Cannes, and hopefully you're gonna get some time for, like, some seriously good inputs in terms of that-
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah
Speaker 1: ... that vision, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Tell me about some of the things that you're kind of most excited about right now that you're sort of keen to kind of get your fingers into and understand more.
Speaker 2: So, so definitely AI. I'm really interested. It's, it's, it's really changing some markets, like the publishers.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Like, if you look at traditional publishers, their traffic has gone through the floor. So that's really interesting to see how that'll work and how the LLMs will really take over. Um, so, so I'm interested to talk about that. Retail media is obviously c- continuing to grow, so finding out more about, about what they're doing. Just there's always so many good conversations. You meet so many great people just walking down the street that I'm always surprised.
Speaker 1: And when you think about yourself, you know, like, how do you kind of tend to kind of, um, other than being here at Cannes, to kind of learn and develop? What's, what are your kinda go-to kinda sources? Who, who inspires you, or what podcasts are you kind of, like, absolutely, like, nailed on?
Speaker 2: So, so you talked earlier, you've got Mark Ritson.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think he's great. I, I always use a diagram that he did, um, which is tactical marketing versus brand, and I think you can apply that to products as well. So you do these small increments on product, but it doesn't, it doesn't change the needle unless you do the big bang. So I d- I use that graph quite a lot. He's, he's great. Um, and I tend just to... I don't really like some of the panels. I find they're very high level. So you don't-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... you don't learn as much. So the podcasts, um, just talking to people. I think those one-on-one conversations, you can't beat them.
Speaker 1: And if you were sort of able to meet Sarah when she was maybe at the beginning of her kind of journey, and you know what you know now, what, what sort of advice would you give her?
Speaker 2: I, I would probably say be bolder. Um, there was a few decisions early in my career that I'd wished I'd been bolder on, um, and that you can make mistakes, that I think you need to lean in and make a mistake every now and again. You learn a lot from the mistakes you make in your life.
Speaker 1: I love that. Um, and finally, we're sitting down here, and we can, you can pick, pick when. Maybe it's three, maybe it's five years' time. What are we gonna be talking about?
Speaker 2: I think we'll still be talking about AI.
Speaker 2: I say that in an exasperated way, but I think-
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... it, it'll be really interesting to find out what happens.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Um, I'm slightly concerned about what it's gonna do to people early in their careers because actually those entry-level jobs, we don't need as many of, potentially, but how is that gonna affect long-term business? And I think that's what we don't really understand, so I think that will be a key topic of conversation in a few years.
Speaker 1: Sarah, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker 2: Thank you.