Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: You're listening to "The Business of Marketing," providing marketing intelligence and more from the leaders shaping the industry.
Speaker 2: Welcome to "The Business of Marketing." My name's John Horsley. I'm the host of the show today. I have the great pleasure of being joined by Russell Pedrick, who is managing director of Octave, a News UK company. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Thank you, John. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: As a starter for 10, it would be really great if you could sort of briefly explain a little bit about your career journey and more so what drew you into the world of, of marketing and, and media.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, I think like most people, y- you kinda don't realize that the media advertising industry is, is what it is when you're at university. Um, I actually did a degree in marketing, uh, and, and my dad was, uh, in sales, and I, you know, this sound very simple, but I kinda thought, "Well, why don't I have a go at selling marketing?" Um, and, and that's what I did. So my first role, uh, was selling email marketing. Um, very much a kind of a boiler room-type sales experience, so making 70 calls a day, uh, 10 proposals a day, uh, really sort of, you know, 9:00 till 6:00, you know, uh, earning your money, um, which was great. I did that for a couple of years, worked for a video network. My first big break, I suppose, came when I got a, got a role at, um, at ESPN, part, part of the Walt Disney Company. So I was hired as a, a TV and digital salesperson when, back in the day when ESPN had the, the Premier League rights. Um, obviously, they ended up going to BT, and then everything shifted very much into a digital-first business, and that's when I really started to, to, to realize that that's where my, my career lied. Um, so I had five brilliant years at Walt Disney, great company, um, and then moved over to, uh, become a group head on The Sun. Uh, it'll be 10 years this year, actually 10 years in November. Uh, five brilliant years on The Sun, working my way from sort of group head all the way through to head of digital. Uh, and then there was an opportunity, uh, yeah, four and a half, five years ago to, to come over to the broadcasting side. Um, obviously, the digital audio market since then has, has, uh, evolved quite significantly. Um, but there was an opportunity to essentially help build the, the, the broadcasting digital side of the business, um, which I took. Um, so became director of digital, um, there, and then, yeah, a few years in, um, we then had the, the op- opportunity with Octave, and then obviously we've moved in, um, officially last, last April to become managing director of, of Octave o- once we'd acquired it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow. Um, what you've explained there, you obviously started off at, I guess, the early stages of digital, as it were-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... selling email marketing. Um, you've transitioned. You've worked across sports, news, uh, and now you're working within broadcast and audio. What's changed most in that period of time in terms of the way that media's looked at and, and how it's bought?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, um, a huge amount of change. Well, I've, I've noticed a huge amount of changes in the last five, six years, to be honest with you. I think the obvious, from a digital perspective, the obvious part would obviously be the rise of programmatic, and that continues to evolve. Uh, and actually what's interesting for me is, is when I worked on The Sun, seeing how programmatic was evolving the publishing landscape and now how it's evolving in the audio landscape that, you know, now with the technology is, is evolving. I think measurement, I think automation is a huge part, and that's only gonna accelerate in the next few years. I'm sure we'll touch on that in a moment. Um, and I think, you know, since I've been at News UK, we've seen transformative, just huge amount of change in, in the way that the whole company thinks and operates. Um, you know, even the way from when I first started 10 years ago to how the print and digital teams used to work together, now they're very much, you know, much, much closer as one team. That's right from the newsroom perspective to the commercial operations, to the way the technology teams work, how the whole company is harnessing AI now. Um, so it continues to change. It's sometimes a little bit difficult to keep up with it, um, and I'm sure, you know, in three, four years' time it will look different again.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think that's kind, for me, that's what's quite exciting about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Looking at audio, what do you think the industry's still getting wrong in terms of maybe its perception or perhaps how they go about buying-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... something else?
Speaker 1: Big, big question. Um, I think there's a, a, there is a, there's a lack of understanding, I think. I think the audio market also now looks very different to what it did six, seven years ago. Again, that's with the rise of, with automation, with the change in consumer behavior. You know, connected listening now, it's, it's roughly about 30% of our listening. We're, we're one of the highest skewed of, as, as a business. Um, so I think there's a, a lack of understanding in terms of the role that audio plays on a media plan. You know, is it just a direct, direct response type tool? Can it be used for brand? Um, and also how it, how it can engage and work with other forms of media as well.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: There is... I, I would say there's generally a lack of understanding. I'm sure we're gonna get into it more on this podcast. Um, but there's also, I think there's a huge amount of untapped potential with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, you know, most media plans still start with, I guess, line items to a certain extent-
Speaker 2: ... and, and channel splits, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So you might look at TV, digital, audio, out of home-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... and so on. Um, are we still planning media in a way that doesn't match how people actually behave? And you've, you've got that experience 'cause you've also got the, the print media. You're saying you've got audio, you know, et cetera. So it'd be really great to understand this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, you know, even as our business, we obviously predominantly radio stations, but they're not radio stations anymore, right? You, you, you... We've now got a 24/7 live feed for, for talk sport on CTV. Uh, we're visualizing all of our radio stations. We actually reach more people now on social than we do, um, through, through, through our listening. Um, but I think actually if I just throw at you some general stats-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: ... to, to, to audio as a market, you know, audio now accounts for 24% of the average adult's daily consumption. But, you know, depending on what numbers you, you look and believe, it's between 2 to 3% of total ad spend. Well, that doesn't, that doesn't add up. Um, you know, 78% of the population now consumes digital audio weekly. Um, you know, but it's only getting 2.5% of digital spend. So the, it, it... in terms of what the audience is doing and where the spend is, there, there is a, a massive disparity at the moment with... discrepancy, sorry, in terms of where, um, where that's at. Um, and even if you look at, you know, podcasts, 51% of adults listen to a podcast a week now in the UK.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Speaker 1: It's got n- it's got what, 1, 1% of the spend? So yeah, there's, there's a huge, huge discrepancy. So, so media planning is, is catching up, and again, that comes back to that education piece with the agencies, with the buyers, and the role that audio can now play.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, that's really interesting. That's similar to the US, right? So the US, I believe, is around about 50 or just over 50% as well.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And there's a huge amount of attention that's earned as well on a podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. I think, I think particularly with if we look at the connected listening side of things, um, you know, it always takes a little bit of time for the market to catch up, right? Um, in, in terms of the technology's accelerating, but the, the way in which media bought, it takes a little bit of time for that to catch up with the technology. Um, but I think, you know, ev- even now, there's... I don't think everyone is fully aware of, of the, what you can actually do within audio. Um, not only you've got the audience stats there, which are one thing, but the, you know, the data, the targeting opportunities now and how precise it can be. Yes, you can still do your mass marketing, you can do that, but how, you know, right down to a postcode, um, you know, the dynamic creative in terms of delivery. The quality of the sound now is... that, that can't be missed either. You know, th- 30, 40 years ago, listening to radio is very different to how you listen to radio or podcast now.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and you really can get it kind of, you know, anytime, anywhere. Uh, and that quality has really caught up. And even down to the simplicity of, you know, 5G now. Um, you know, if you're on the move and you wanna listen to a Premier League football match, you can do that now in, in... w- with high quality. So it... There's a, there's a, there's a lack of understanding, I think, a bit, but that is... that, quite frankly, comes down to us to ensure that we're, we're educating the market.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Why do you think that audio's been seen as a, as an add-on to a plan, as it were?
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think there's the... I think, you know, if you look at it from a simplistic perspective, I suppose it's that audio versus visual comparison. Um, so people will perceive that because... You know, brands obviously wanna show off their product within an ad, so there's that, that, that visual element. But again, I think it's, it's that, it's that understanding of the role that audio plays on the wider, within your mar- wider marketing mix, and how it would complement a, a TV ad, how it might complement an out-of-home ad. Um, and I think also, you know, there's, there's been a huge amount of, of development as they had across the whole market, but particularly in, in TV, in the CTV space. You know, if you look at the likes of, you know, you've got Amazon, Netflix, Disney. You know, big, big companies, big organizations that are also going into audio as well now. Um, but there's obviously a lot of noise in those other channels, which then makes, you know... It's a, a relatively smaller market for audio, less players involved, harder to make that noise and, and excitement. But it does feel like there's, there's, particularly over the last 12 months, there's a real positive shift, uh, fro- certainly from what I'm seeing with, with the agencies now.
Speaker 2: Sure. And there's, there's also the partnership, isn't there, with Netflix and, and Spotify?
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: So that's gonna disrupt and shake things up a little bit as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll continue to do that, and I think we'll see more of that, uh, as, as we move through. Um, and I'm sure we'll touch on it but, you know, ev- even if you look at podcasts now, it's, it's qui- I think it's becoming harder to define what a podcast is, what it actually is anymore. Um, and if you, you look at, you know, what Apple are doing with the HSS, um, update. Spotify have become very video first. Acast are really moving into that space. We will continue to see more and more of that. Um, yeah, so, so, so all, all of those different mediums will continue to, to collide.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So if the traditional sort of channel plan, as it were-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... is, is starting to erode, break down, or it needs to change, frankly, what do you feel replaces that?
Speaker 1: I think the way that media is bought and planned will, will continue to change. I think, um, you know, we're looking at agentive, um, planning coming in. Um, I think that, you know, as, as we become more connected as, as an industry, as agencies have far more data at their fingerpint- at their fingertips, sorry. Fingerpoints. I'm getting there. Fingerpoints. Fingertips. God. We'll delete that bit out. Fingertips. Um, then I think their understanding will also grow in terms of, you know, the, the impact of each different channel having. I don't think it's a question of, you know, what replaces what. Um, I actually... I'm, I'm quite excited actually by if agencies are starting to look at things more holistically in different channels, then they'll... then, then, you know, they'll, they'll start to, you know, realize even more the, the what can be done by utilizing digital audio and the data, the creativity side of it. Um, so I, I feel quite positive o- on that front long term to how audio will be planned and bought in the future.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're using the word audio-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... but obviously it covers a hell of a lot, doesn't it? So you've got radio, you've got podcasts, you've got streaming, gaming, even social as well. Um, do you see that as one category or are they, you know, all fundamentally different things?
Speaker 1: I think there is an element of difference with them. I think fundamentally it helps audio overall, uh, and I think that's exciting for, for, for buyers and advertisers, um, and the different role that those, those different touchpoints can play within audio. And I, I'll, I'll give you an example. Um, you know, we, we, we've really tried to build Octave, and we are building Octave as, as a premium, um, audiovisual business. Um, and, and the word premium gets used a lot in media, um, but I think that premium is, is really important. You know, all of our radio stations are Ofcom regulated. I think it would be disgenerous to say, disingenuous I would say that, you know, uh, an Ofcom regulated radio station, um, the content that it's putting out, you know, really invested with the, you know, the audience and the content that's, that's, that's, that's being produced on a daily basis to, you know, someone putting something out on a social channel that is not regulated, and it could even be AI generated in the future, right? And we're starting to see that, podcasts pop up that are purely AI generated. Now, are they of the same quality, right? And it's the same, goes back to, you know, we used to have this argument all the time, and I'm sure my, my colleagues still do, that, you know, if you look at, you know, the thousands of websites that there are- Um, you know, you've got the quality of a, a, a, you know, something like The Sun, uh, a news publication to, you know, what might be a blog from someone could be a bot generating that. There, there are differences in quality, right? And I think you'll s- you'll see that within audio. Having said that, I, I do think that all the different touchpoints, you mentioned gaming, social, um, podcast, broadcast radio, um, it, it creates more, um, opportunities for advertisers, and that can only be a good thing for our industry long term.
Speaker 2: Hmm. And you've brought gaming audio obviously into the mix-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... as well, and you've, I believe you've done that through partnerships.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: What does that look like?
Speaker 1: Um, it, it, well, it, it's really exciting. I mean, you know, when, um, so when we acquired Octave, um, last year, um, we looked at the audience and, and, and what we wanted to do was, was bring in other inventory partners that would complement or diversify the inventory stack that we had. Um, gaming's a really exciting audi- area. I mean, we're working with a company called AudioMob. You know, they reach six million in the UK. Um, I think also there's a lot of misperceptions around gaming audio. Um, you know, people might just associate it with, um, a young teenage boy playing Call of Duty in his bedroom. Couldn't be more different. Uh, there is a, a much older audience consuming it, um, much, much more upmarket, um, and also female skewed as well, which, which was really interesting to us, again, complementing what we already have within our broadcast set. Um, and also it, it, it also offers, offers advertisers and, um, different creative delivery opportunities as well, uh, and that different messaging. So, you know, we, we, we are working with other partners as well. Um, and again, it's about making sure that we can create the most compelling audio offering to the market.
Speaker 2: Hmm. Plus, we touched on, um, the idea that audio gains attention.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: It earns, it really does earn a lot of attention.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yep.
Speaker 2: Probably more so, or potentially more so than other channels.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, and I believe that you, you obviously feel that's true. Um, but how is the, the market starting to catch up and, and starting to get behind that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we- we've, you know, we've seen significant growth over the last 12 months, so I think that the market is starting to catch up, first and foremost. Um, I think buyers are now becoming far more aware of, um, you know, how data particularly can be utilized, the, the, the quality of, of the product, but also how hard it can work as well. One, one of the, one of the challenges we've, we've had in au- in the audio industry for a little while is measurement and proving that it works. I think more and more of that is coming now. Um, and, and we're certainly starting to build our, you know, a good raft of case studies now and, and, and the results that it's generated, and that feedback comes from agencies. So if we keep making sure that it works, I'm sure that spend will continue to, to come our way.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Are there any specialist tools that you use in terms of podcasting and, um, trying to measure the audience there?
Speaker 1: Yeah, there, there's a, there's a few different partners. I mean, one of the partners we work with, Veritonic, for example, they're very good at, you know, looking at brand, brand uplift, um, measurement of a brand, um, uh, the performance, uh, of, of, of particularly the connected audio. Podcast is a little bit harder. What I would say, though, is that we, we are increasingly, particularly as an omni-channel business, trying to demonstrate how all the platforms work together. Um, podcasting now, we very rarely sell just an audio, particularly from a sponsorship perspective, just the audio element. We're selling the, the, you know, the, the sponsor studio, the logos, the, the watermark logos on the screen. Um, so we're having to demonstrate not only that the audio bit works, but actually the whole part of it works. So we work with a number of third parties to do that, and we are also developing our own measurement, measurement tools as well.
Speaker 2: Do you think that's fueled by a shift in terms of the CMO as an example, um, perhaps a move from performance, which we've seen over the last 10 years, to more of a balance in terms of brand and demand?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so, and I think that's the understanding is starting to broaden, that the audio isn't just a, a DR tool or, or, or, or might be, you know, put in just as a, as a brand tool. I think it can do both jobs. Um, and I think it is, it's, it's a tricky one for us and we, you know, when, when our sales team go out there and sell, we can do the simplistic, you know, "Oh, great, you wanna reach 20 million people, we can do it by," you know, that. But also then just how intricate you can go and, and what we are finding and, you know, certainly, um, welcome this feedback from agencies, and we do get it, is, you know, brands still want that simplicity. Um, you know, Octave primarily is a audience segment seller. We have over 90, I think it might even be 100 different segments now, utilizing all our first party publishing data, enriching that data with some of our partners. We only use first party data. Um, but when we actually look, come down to it, typically we sell on a regular basis 25 to 30 of those segments. Uh, we obviously have our sort of top performing categories, um, but we have certain audiences that brands know what they're d- getting, they kind of buy them, so it might be anything from, you know, our parents category, supermarkets might buy that. Um, you know, we have seen a, a real resurgence in travel at the moment, so, you know, we've got obviously, um, sort of our travel segments that, that are being sold. But they're all quite... The product, whilst the data is rich, it's quite a simple buy.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Speaker 1: There's so much more we can do and so much more you can dive into. Um, and I think the long tail of the market is where there's, there's a lot of opportunity actually with, um, small million businesses particularly, um, because now that you can utilize AI creative, it's more cost effective, uh, and they can access that data and target to, to... So if you're, I don't know, you're running a car garage, for example, up in the north somewhere, you can very easily now target a precise group of people within a location with a high quality ad for, you know, very cost effective, um, budget. So, um, yeah, I hope that's answered the question-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... from, from-
Speaker 2: I thought that's fantastic.
Speaker 1: Um-
Speaker 2: I, I like the idea of sort of hyperlocal-
Speaker 1: Yes
Speaker 2: ... um, democratization to a certain extent as well. Um, and, you know, platforms becoming accessible for smaller companies, I think that's really good.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And, and that was, that was the whole point of our, our, um, or sorry, a big part of, of, of our, um, AI product launch.
Speaker 2: Yeah. There, there's a lot of new platforms in the audio space. Does that fragmentation help or is it helping fuel, uh, growth as opposed to necessarily hin- hinder growth?
Speaker 1: Well, the market's growing, so I would, I would certainly say that over the last, um, 12 months we've seen that. I mean, we've been part of that fragmentation, right? With, with, um, you, you had Octave, which had b-both Bauer's inventory and News UK's inventory, um, as part of that, um, inventory pool. Um, we obviously, uh, Bauer have gone on in, in a different direction. We, we've obviously, um, taken on the Octave business and grown it and, and that's helped the market, I think, because back to my earlier point, talking about different, um, the number of players in the CTV game, for example. Um, I think having more players in the audio space, uh, means that there's more people going in to see the agencies, um, and talking to the agencies on a regular basis. Uh, I think that's a good thing. Um, overall, um, we need to ensure the market doesn't get too fragmented obviously. Um, but I think that, you know, if you look at the number of players that are actually in the audio space, um, compared to other, other markets, I don't, I don't think there's a huge amount of fragmentation, but I-- we-- I, what I would absolutely encourage and what we want to see more and more of in the future is, is, is collaboration, and I think we'll see more of that, um, coming down the track, particularly if it's to the benefit of the overall market.
Speaker 2: Do you feel that's the best way for media businesses to build and grow through, through partnerships?
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, we're doing it, as I said, we've already touched on, on Audio Mob within gaming. Um, uh, yeah, uh, uh, and I think we're seeing it right across the spectrum, not just within audio, um, but you, you're seeing it right across, um, how podcasts now are going onto CTV platforms. Um, and it's about how I think we've got to, you know, not just talk about, um, commercial businesses, but actually the audience and, and how is the audience consuming that media and how can we... You know, I, I, as, as a consumer myself, myself and taking me away from my day job, it, it's, it's really difficult now to, to, to keep up and have all the platforms, right? I mean, I've got a five-year-old son, uh, he wants Disney, I want Netflix. Uh, I think we've had Paramount. We've got, you know, Sky subscription. It's very difficult to find... And you see, you see a new TV ad on, on, and, and you thought, "I see a new ad," and you, you go, "Oh, we haven't got that platform. Can't watch that." So I think you've gotta think about the consumer first, first as well. Um, so yeah.
Speaker 2: You've recently launched, uh, Octave AI.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: My understanding of that is it brings dynamic creative and optimization into audio. What does that actually mean in, in practice? What does that look like?
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. So when I moved over to the broadcasting side of the business, um, four years ago, um, I had a number of companies come in and see us and say, "Look, we, we've developed this AI tool. We can now create high quality audio ads in seconds." Uh, uh, and if, if I'm being completely honest with you, it, it wasn't ready then for four years ago. Um, you know, quite often the, the, the de- the demos wouldn't work, and, and the ads felt, felt tinny. They just didn't sound human. They didn't sound natural. Um, cut move on four years and, and that's completely changed. Um, so we've gone into partnership again, another partnership, uh, with a, with a brilliant company called Audio Stack. Uh, and we started talking to them, um, over a year ago. Um, and, and the idea is, is for us is to offer an alternative to human-made creative. So, you know, and, and before we go any further, I absolutely think there's a place for that long term, by the way, and we very much will continue to invest in that. Um, but some of the, the challenges we've had around, I suppose human-made creative, sometimes you might get a late brief come through. Um, there's not enough time to get a studio space booked to get the presenter in the room, um, or, or, you know, who- whoever's, um, recording the ad. Uh, and, and just the time length to create an audio ad to the right quality, bearing in mind to get any amends from the client back and forth at that time process took too long. Um, so what the AI technology that we have enables brands to do is, is create a high quality, um, fully, fully approved and, and regulated ad within, within minutes. Um, it's been a real learning curve for the team, uh, in terms of u-using that technology and how we use it. Uh, the agencies have really leaned in. I mean, we, we, we looked at this as twofold. It would help big brands, um, to activate, you know, some really smart, dynamic creative campaigns, which is a brilliant one with Sky around the F1. So the ads were literally changing based on what was happening, you know, over a weekend, um, for the F1, which was, which was amazing. Um, but then we also, you know, our launch partner, Marks & Spencer, they opened a new store in Bristol, and we were able to do a number of versions targeted on a relatively small budget, um, to that specific area. So we, we, we definitely saw whilst big brands would utilize it, I think we touched on this earlier, small, medium businesses who perhaps don't have £5,000, £6,000 to spend on a, you know, high quality broadcast ready ad, um, can come to us and create something, um, really agile, really cost effectively, and then they can put more of that money in, into the ads. Um, where the exciting bit, really exciting bit long term comes is not only just the, the quality of the ad now that is there, it's also the variations of the ad and then how that a- those ads can be tied back to the data. So for example, you know, if you're a supermarket, uh, this summer, um, the variable British weather, uh, as you can imagine, you could have it raining. I, I'll go with the South, raining in London. Um, so you, you, you might have, you know, hot weather up in the north so that if you're listening to, um, a radio station up in the north, you will get a, you know, go to Tesco now to buy, uh, get your barbecue pack for the weekend. Whereas if it's downstairs, don't worry, it's raining. You can literally change the copy based on what the weather is, uh, and, and the location of that person. Uh, and then you can deep dive into it deeper even further than that. We know what the, the user's interests are, behaviors are, so you can be really precise with it and, and the dynamic creative, you know, we can create over a thousand copies in minutes. Um, it's really quite, quite impressive. Um, what we have found though, even with creating the AI, uh, sorry, building the creative with, with the AI technology, is that human touch is still really important, that human creativity. So what we are sort of seeing is that, I'd say 80% to 90% of the, the creative is there. It's just that little 10%, 10%, 15% on top at the moment that gets it from Almost all, becoming what you'd call a natural human-made ad-
Speaker 2: Sure
Speaker 1: ... if you like.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's incredible. So multi-variant hyper-personalization.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Um, adaptability, I guess, uh, around, as you've talked about, weather or proxim- proximity or, or, or other conditions as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, we, we're already working on what, what's next, uh, and it's the, the AI, um, sort of evolution just continues to speed up, get faster and faster. So, um, a- again, it's, it's also making sure that we as a company are using it responsibly, um, and it's complementing what we do within our... And we, we still get brands come to us and say, "Not 100% sure yet." More and more brands are leaning in, which is great. Um, but you'll always get some brands that want that kind of studio experience, come in, see their ad being shot, hear it, see all the dials going up, the lights, et cetera. So, um, it will take a little bit of time for that. But I, I do also think that there'll always be a place for a human-made creative as well.
Speaker 2: Sure. There's been a, a huge race really over the years in terms of building up first-party data.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Which is obviously important, but in reality, how much data do brands actually need in terms of making audio work for them?
Speaker 1: Um, the, the answer is that there's, there's... It's not about how much data they need, it's about aligning the right data to, to the media brief. Um, we have, we are in a very privileged position at Octave where we utilize the full breadth of News UK's first-party data. Uh, News UK obviously invests a huge amount of capital to, to, to build, as you rightly say, that, that data proposition and also maintain it. Um, and it's important for us that we don't also come overbearing with the number of data points as well. I touched on it earlier, but that simplicity is still key. So how we package that data and how we simplify it for brands and make s- and give them the confidence and trust that they're reaching the right audience at the right time, um, is, is really, really important. Um, so I, I don't think it's a case of, um, you know, h- how much data they need, it's making sure they get the right data, um, to ultimately meet the KPIs of the brief.
Speaker 2: Sure. You talked about automation and optimization in terms of your, your AI, and you've obviously touched on creativity as, as well as part of that. Um, let's just go a little bit deeper into the i- the idea of obviously still needing the human creative. Where does that judgment sit now and, and how, h- how, how is it adapting?
Speaker 1: I think the judgment will eventually sit with the consumer. Um, you know, we're, we're seeing a lot of big companies around the world run away with, with AI and producing everything from a, you know, a display ad to an audio ad to a, you know, a full TV creative now by using AI. Um, I think we need to maintain that human connection. Um, so I think that will, it will always come back to the consumer and how the consumer reacts to those ads. Um, you know, we, we, we took a decision a few years ago that we weren't quite ready to go with the AI product. It just didn't sound right. It does now. The technology has really come on. So i- I suppose it's making a judgment call at the right time when it's right for your business. Um, I think, you know, it'll come down to consumer and it'll come down to the advertisers themselves, um, what they think is the right approach for their particular campaign.
Speaker 2: So let's just change the topic slightly. So you bring together content, data, distribution all in, in one place. Do you think the broader or the wider media industry is gonna start moving in that direction, or do you feel that it will still stay kind of fragmented, i.e. you go to a specialist for X or Y or, or Z?
Speaker 1: I think, I think if you look at the wider media landscape now, there's a huge amount of, um, you know, well even if you just stay within the, the audio industry, right? If you look at two of our largest competitors are both invested in, in the outdoor space, uh, we've very much gone down the route of, of investing in visual and, and the CTV space. Um, I think that, you know, there, there's the, there's the, the desire to move to an omni-channel model as a, as a business to ensure that you're tapping into multiple dis- budgets, obviously, from a media plan, but it's also how the consumer's behaving. If you just go back to podcasts again, you know, w- we do a full sponsorship now of a podcast. Um, you know, everything we go out and pitch to, to an agency now has got both the, the audio element but also the visual element. And the visual element obviously is a larger proportion of that plan, just, just naturally given the size of the audience, uh, and, and the commercials metrics involved with that. Um, but I, I think what, what, what's interesting is, you know, from a partnership perspective, I think the agencies are set up really well to buy that, so those big sponsorships. Um, there's still an element of fragmentation in terms of... So, you know, we, if we t- talk about spot buy with, with podcasts, for example, agencies are still transacting and buying spot buys, but they're not necessarily buying the video bit in the same way at the moment. I think that will come.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and, uh, so, so I, I think, you know, I think we might come onto partnerships, but partnerships are a way at the moment of a, of, of big organizations going in, saying, "Look at all this stuff we've got," you know, the kind of long list of products and platforms that we have and how it all works together. But on a day-to-day, typical AV plan, for example, that, that, that buying isn't quite there yet.
Speaker 2: Sure. And then, you know, in a world that's becoming a lot more data-driven-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... that, you know, we're talking about here, how do you balance the commercial opportunity with editorial integrity? That's something that publishers are always obviously very concerned about.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think, I think since, since day one when I joined, um, News UK w- working on The Sun, um, that importance of the editorial integrity is, is, is there and really ingrained. Um- You know, we, we have a, a, a branded content team within, within Octave who have to strike that balance o- on a regular basis between trying to deliver something or, you know, whether it be a sponsorship or a bespoke piece of branded content for a brand, maintaining that integrity of, of, you know, say, for example, it's TalkSport, right? S- a brand sometimes might push for a presenter to say something that presenter might not feel comfortable with, or it doesn't quite align with, with a TalkSport brand per- p- for example. So there is always that balance. Um, a- and, and, you know, we ultimately are very protective of, of our brands, of our IP, um, of the data as well, and our consumers, uh, as a responsible business. Um, and, you know, ultimately, that all comes back to funding, um, journalism, whi- which still remains, you know, particularly with the news cycle at the moment, ever so important. Uh, and I've always been a really strong believer of that since I joined the company 10 years ago, and it's even more prevalent now than it's ever been. Um, but it is also becoming, not harder, but, um, we need to re- retain that focus on as, as more and more companies want to utilize our first-party data, they want access to our presenters, to our journalists, it's really important that that line is, is clear, uh, right from the outset with advertisers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally agree. In terms of leadership-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... if we're look- looking back five years and, you know, um, versus where we're at now, um, I'm just wondering what a media leader needs to be great at now that they perhaps didn't need to be five years back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, well, I think the obvious change within the last five, six years is obviously COVID, uh, and the way in which that, um, you know, people work. There's flexible working, working from home. That does change the way you, you lead. Um, so, so in terms of actual day-to-day management, it's a little bit different to what it was five, six years ago. I think it's great personally, um, not only from a personal perspective in terms of flexibility I now have, you know, you know, a, a father and, and, and, and, and, and whatnot, uh, which is, is great. I think the, the industry is moving so fast at the moment with the, with AI, with the, the, technology, the way that media's being planned and bought and is going to be planned and bought, um, and even the way that we use AI from a day-to-day basis. You know, there's so much more data I now have at my fingertips that will inform the decisions that I make with regards to my own team and how we work with the wider News UK business. So I think the key word that I would use increasingly so that I'm finding is adaptability. Um, as a leader, you know, you, you... I'm sure that Octave will look very different in three, four years' time to what it does now. So I've not only gotta make sure that I am ready for that, but also my team is ready for that change as well. So, uh, and that's not to say that leaders five, 10 years ago didn't have the, you know, weren't thinking further ahead. Just the pace of change now I think is so much faster.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm just gonna ask a few quick-fire-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... questions. So a brand that you feel is doing great marketing at this point in time.
Speaker 1: Brand that's doing great marketing. Uh, this is probably a personal thing, but Guinness. I just think the way that they have built that brand over the last, you know, 20, 30 years into what it is now is, is, is, is really impressive. It's just simple. Uh, I also like the product as well, which probably helps. Um, but I, I think Guinness for me, um, constantly. And I think also, um, to, to use, uh, Paddy Power particularly as well, uh, I think people forget it's a betting brand a lot of the time. The way that it just resonates with its audience on a day-to-day basis is fantastic.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're, uh, they're two brands that very much have a personality as well.
Speaker 1: Yes. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Um, one thing that brands still get wrong about audio.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've, we've gone through a few bits there. Um, I think it's just a level of understanding, uh, and the perception of the role that audio can play within the wider, wider media plan.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, I think that, that, that's still there, and that's an education job that we need to do.
Speaker 2: Is there a go-to, go-to podcast that you would recommend to our listeners? Could be B2B, could be B2C.
Speaker 1: Oh, this one. Has to be this one, surely. Has to be this one, surely. Um, no, there's a few, there's a few different podcasts k- um, that, that I listen to and have, have been very fortunate to be involved in. Um, and I think that's great. And the reason why I think it's great is because the next generation of, of media professionals, um, obviously, you know, I think it's brilliant to give accessibility to them, um, so they can hear that, you know, I remember where I was when I come out of university, um, didn't have anything like this to, to sort of... What's that, what's that advertising thing about? Um, so I think, you know, more and more of these is just, is, is, is amazing for those, those young students, and obviously, they are used to listening to podcasts. So, um, yeah, I'm all for that.
Speaker 2: Sure. 100%. So just a, a closing thought from yourself. Um, I've always asked this question, but, uh, advice for a younger individual looking to get into the marketing or, or media industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's two, there's two bits of advice I'd probably give someone, um, coming out, um, is first of all, and this, this is something that, that actually News Corp use regularly, um, and it's, it's kind of be curious always. I think that's brilliant. It's amazing. Um, 'cause I think you have to be curious to be in, in, in media. Such a fast-changing landscape on a day-to-day basis. Uh, it's exciting. There's amazing opportunities within it. Um, I've had an amazing career to date. Um, but I think, um, the, the thing I would always come back to, and something I've always made sure that I've, you know, never lost sight of is, is that work ethic. Um, you know, if you put your head down and you work hard, that will be rewarded. Uh, and I think that's, that's more true now than it's ever been, even w- with everything around AI automation and, you know, th- but yeah, you, you've obviously got to be, to be smart, but if you work hard and you're curious, then you can have an amazing career.
Speaker 2: Great. Thanks, Russell. You've been, uh, an incredible guest on the show today. Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Jim. Thanks for listening to The Business of Marketing. New conversations every week at businessof.co.