Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: Welcome to The Business of Marketing. My name's John Horsley, I'm the host of the show today. I have the great pleasure of being joined by Tom Murphy, who is the Chief Creative Officer at VML. Welcome to the show, Tom.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Um, I normally ask this, this question o- of people within our industry, but when you were younger perhaps, or at the start of your career, what attracted you to the world of advertising and, and creative?
Speaker 2: Um, I think I was... This is going back very far, but as a kid, I was the kid who was forever drawing and forever in the art room. Uh, and my dad, uh, being sort of tangentially in the world of marketing, I think realized that, uh, maybe a practical use of my talents might be the world of marketing and advertising, and he gave me a, a gentle push this way, and I am very grateful, uh, to him for doing so.
Speaker 1: Brilliant. Was your father a creative as well?
Speaker 2: He ... Absolutely not, and he would be the first person to say he's a, an, a, a very uncreative guy. But I think he kind of understood. He saw in me something that he saw in hi- in his world that maybe could be of value.
Speaker 1: That's exceptional.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, so you've led creative teams through a lot of change. I mean, agencies have, have transformed, branding flags changed, uh, expectations have changed as well. What does great work need to look like now that perhaps it, it didn't 10 years ago? So how, how has that changed?
Speaker 2: I, I, I think, uh, this sounds obvious, but, but I think just fundamentally work now has to be interesting. It has to ... It just has to be provocative and has to strike a chord. I think even 10 years ago, um, you could sort of pay your way into getting attention, and now in, in the sort of overcrowded world we live in, unless you've got a point of view, uh, in your work, just nobody's going to pay attention. So I think just that is increasingly the story of what we do.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And w- what are you seeing in the best briefs that are coming through from your clients? How's that echoed somehow?
Speaker 2: I, I think, I think clients are, are realizing that. I, I think the most interesting conversations we're having with them are actually happening though, um, before the brief, before you're even talking about the deliverables. I think increasingly in a good way, um, even as a creative person, you are being invited into very strategic discussions with clients at, at a high level, and that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: Mm. Do you think there's been a change in the last, uh... You know, I'm, I'm looking back over the 10 years. So there's been huge investment in performance, performance marketing and so on. Do you feel that there is a groundswell or a bit of a change now towards creativity and storytelling and, and perhaps longer term investments such as brand building?
Speaker 2: Um, I, I, I do. I, I think you can really feel that, that there's sort of a return to focus on the idea. I think, you know, the industry has become, or had become so increasingly rational, and I think there's a growing appreciation of sometimes the irrational and the illogical things because those are so often the most memorable and the th- and the things that connect with people. And I think, I think, you know, sometimes people can kind of confuse scale and efficiency with actual impact. I saw somebody, I'm stealing this one, but, you know, peo- people say, "1,000 times zero is still zero." So you can spread things, um, as, as far and wide as you want to, but unless they're actually fundamentally interesting, um, nobody's gonna pay attention.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And when you're looking across a, a big region, it could be the States, it might be Europe, Asia, wherever, um, what tells you if a piece of work has real potential at, perhaps at an early stage of its inception?
Speaker 2: I, I think that still comes down to, like, for me anyway, it's sort of, am I rushing to tell other people about an idea? You know, I always find that when you, when you hear a great idea, that's your first instinct, is that you wanna share it with others. Um, and that's always a good sign. So I know that's just a very simple, uh, human metric, but I just always find that's the case. If I'm rushing to tell my coworkers, even my family about an idea, it's, it's a sign that there's something there.
Speaker 1: Cool. Um, so it's, it's kinda test and learn to a certain extent or, uh, see if people can understand and interpret or how they might interpret tho- those ideas and the thinking.
Speaker 2: O- of course. And, and, and AI lets you test things really, really quickly and effectively, and so you wanna, you wanna use that. But I, I still think when you start to see promise in an idea, it's u- so often just your, your and the people in the room with you's reaction to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, so you are obviously leading North America, which is, you know, huge. You're inside a very, very big business as well. How do you keep the bar high, uh, you know, without slowing things down in, in terms of creative output and the performance from, from your team and what you expect of your colleagues?
Speaker 2: I, I think that's a, a very relevant question. I think in a big organization like ours, but frankly just in, in the way the marketing world works these days, um, I think one of the, um, impediments sometime to speed is you've just got so many stakeholders, and I think the job of the creative director, or certainly me as a CCO becomes how do you, how do you focus the group of decision makers on something? How do you make sure that, that, um, you have the right voices making the decision and tha- and that lets you move much faster?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's get into that a little bit more. So in terms of the decision makers, what does that committee look like now? Imagine it's, it's changed, uh, and transformed or expanded over the years.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, I, I think because so many disciplines are working together on things, um, the beautiful but also sort of dangerous thing is that you've got so many voices on anything, and I, I think, you know, this is just sort of a fundamental truth. But generally, the smaller the group of decision makers, um, the more quickly you can go and the more point of view you can give whatever you're doing. So I think that's the, it, that's the trick, is really, like, obviously invite in, um, inputs, um, but know who the small group of people making the decisions are.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you feel that Sometimes there's a danger when you have, have such a large group of the output just being a little bit too safe-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... 'cause you're trying to please too many individuals.
Speaker 2: A hu-... 100%. Things become sort of averaged. You know, I mean, that's, it's just sorta basic math the more people comment on something. So it's, I think once upon a time, there was this idea that creative people were the kind of lone visionary who are making every creative decision, and clearly that's not the world we live in. And in so many ways, the work has gotten better for having different opinions, uh, in the, in the meeting, in, in the group. But I also think there's a, a total danger with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So what's the best way of g- of gaining their buying e- buy-in and taking them on the journey with you?
Speaker 2: Um, I, I think to that question of decision makers, I think being really clear at, at the upfront of a process about who the decision makers are, um, is, is, is probably the best, the best role.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Where do you find the best ideas k- kind of c- come from in terms of creativity? How ch- how do you and, and perhaps your team get inspired?
Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I mean, that's the beautiful thing about advertising is still the, the best ideas ul- ultimately just come from people. Uh, I know that sounds almost cliched, but it's sort of like if you wanna move people in the world, um, you've gotta start with people. Um, I think, you know, keeping your, your mind and your eyes and your heart open, um, to culture is always, is always a super helpful thing. Um, I think there is a danger in the world where our f- our scrolls and our feeds become our single input of kind of cultural, um, inspiration. I sort of encourage creatives to get out into the world, to go to museums, to go to movies, to, to, to, to do things in the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I always found it was about input. So, you know, you go places, you absorb, and you constantly input, and then you have that in the shower moment, right? Where the idea, it just happens. It comes to life.
Speaker 2: Yep. Yep. Feed your, feed your brain good stuff and good stuff will come out, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, and the types of individuals that you work with from the w- you know, the team. What, what's the makeup of the team?
Speaker 2: Um, I, you know, I think it used to be obviously in a big brand creative agency, it was these very defined art director/copywriter, uh, positions, and now you work with much more multi-hyphenate, sort of multidimensional thinkers. Um, and that makes, frankly, that makes it more interesting. I think it, you know, it, it, it makes it a more interesting business.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, and the individuals within the team, do they have traditional sort of art school backgrounds or per- perhaps that's not necessarily what you're looking for?
Speaker 2: I think these days a lot of what you're looking for is, is people who, who, who make things, I think. And, and one of the things that's happened because of, um, the democratization of the tools that we all use to shoot film, to, to, to make amazing things, I, I think it's just o- opened the industry up again. I look at my, um, my daughter is in film school right now, um, and she's sort of learning formally how to make films, but really what she's learning is being around a bunch of kids who are all extremely scrappy in how they make shit, uh, for lack of a better word, all the time, and I think that's kind of, um, a big part of it, so.
Speaker 1: Actually, I'm interested in that. Amongst the younger individuals, is there a resurgence of analog?
Speaker 2: Um, yeah. Oh, oh, definitely. Definitely. You look, you look at, again, I'm using focus group of my, um, my kids. Uh, they buy records, they buy CDs, they shoot on 35 millimeter film stills. You know, I think ar- artifacts certainly are a, are, are a thing again, which I love as a big fan of it myself. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's about craft as well and, and th- the process of making and, and craft.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It, it is. It is. And I think you see that in, in the film industry as well. Like, everybody's on one level bemoaning the fact that Hollywood is being hollowed out and it's changing. Um, but then I heard Paul Thomas Anderson sort of saying, "Yeah, but if you look at the crop of films that came out this year," you sort of ... Not in recent memory has there been such an interesting crop of, of films being made. So I think craft is alive and well.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's making me think about younger people as well, and they have different needs from, from leaders nowadays, um, that perhaps, you know, your generation might not have asked in the same way. What, what are those needs? How do you support them?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think they, they, uh, without making blanket statements, I do think they, um, need space to do things the way they're going to do them. I think when I was younger, there was a very prescribed way that creative people, uh, worked, and I think this younger generation is, um, they've grown up with a much more flexible border between work and, and play and, and their personal lives and their work lives, and I think giving them room to work the way they, they want to work is important. I also think there is, um, we know having been in the business a while, there is a, um, there's a lot of pessimism actually in our industry right now. There are a lot of articles being written, a- and not just in our industry, but in the world at large, about fear of AI and, and fear of what's happening to entry-level jobs and fear of what the eco- what the industry will look like in a few years. I did a presentation to some people in our office the other day about, you know, sort of career advice. Um, and one of the things that I said to this group was, you know, "Advertising is always dying. Get used to it." Sort of saying that since I entered the business, it's been proclaimed dead every, every year, year after year. And I, I likened, um, in sort of a f- you know, hopefully funny but not, not entirely joking way that advertising in my mind is a cockroach that sort of always finds its way to ... You know? It sort of thrives ultimately no matter what 'cause there's a need to promote brands, and the form We do it and we'll, we'll change but the fundamental need doesn't, doesn't go away. But I had a bunch of young people actually respond particularly to that bit because I think they're used to this, there's just this steady drip of doom, um, in the world, and I think it's helpful to, helpful to remember that, uh... Yeah.
Speaker 1: I, I totally agree.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, and it's no different than any, any other revolution, right? So we've had the Industrial Revolution. People were, were farmers, croppers, whatever else. Uh, they moved into cities. We had the mills. We've had the, uh, mech- mecha- mechanization-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... or mechanisms come in. Um, uh, and it's completely, you know, transformed by then, and I'm sure people were saying the same things then. "Well, I had this job working in the field." Well-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: .... no, i- i- it's just changed.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, when I got into advertising, people were bemoaning, um, you know, M- Mac computers and the fact that we're all using Photoshop and, and these things and, and arguing that unless, uh, creatives are drawing their ideas for hand, by hand, we've sort of lost the purity of the, of the business, and obviously that was not the case at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was there early '90s.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that precisely, yes.
Speaker 1: I started my career as a photographer.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was a purist.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I didn't wanna touch Photoshop.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh, I didn't wanna retouch. Uh, and for me, it was about the craft, the process and the, the mix of a particular film stock with a, a, a type of, uh, paper, with a process of developing it and, and so on to get the, the outcome that was required.
Speaker 2: Which goes back to your earlier question about taste as well. I think, you know, uh, it was true of Photoshop circa 1994, and it's true of AI now, in the hands of somebody with no taste can be dreadful. But in the, in the hands of, and the, and the vision of somebody with, with taste and something to say, um, it can be amazing.
Speaker 1: Actually, that's, that's a really good point. So on a previous show, um, John Rudowski, uh, who's, uh, CMO - I'm gonna call him - at EY-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... but was previously, um, WPP, he talked about, uh, meeting up with Rankin, and Rankin showing him all this AI-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... you know, wizardry.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And he, and, and then Rankin said, "Look, John, go home and, and try it for yourself," and he tried it and his output just wasn't the same 'cause, 'cause he's not an image maker.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Oh, oh, you, you see it all the t- You see it with iPhones. Do you know what I mean? They can be, in the hands of most people, what you see photographically is very uninteresting, but in the hands of the right person, it's, it's breathtaking, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, so you've worked through mergers, rebrands, huge amounts of organizational change. What happens to the work that's being created when a, an agency gets much bigger? Does it change in some way?
Speaker 2: Ob- obviously you h-... Well, you want it to change in, in good ways, obviously. You know, you, when an agency gets bigger, you're bringing in new perspectives, and hopefully that has a positive impact on the work. But what you don't wanna lose is the, um, the, the heart of it, and I think the danger always is the bigger you get, on some level, the, the more f- fearful you can become because the s- the scale is bigger. Um, you know, and, and thus the, um, the dangers of failing are bigger. I'm ... I, I don't know where I'm going with this answer, but, uh, yeah. I think, I think it's about, um, uh, yeah, it's about trying to remember the soul of, of the organization, but also invite in the new perspectives.
Speaker 1: I think it's also about, um, different pressures as wel-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... well. D- And different expectations because if you're in a p- perhaps in larger agency, your base of clients looks fundamentally different-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... than when you were at, at an earlier stage of that journey.
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, and what about immediacy? To people, you know, we live in this world where people are expecting immediacy, uh, and immediate answers, and creativity, in my mind, doesn't necessarily work that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What's your opinion on that?
Speaker 2: Um, I mean, I think that's, that's really a hard one because, of course, you want space to think, um, and you'll forever hear creative saying, "Oh God, do you remember when we used to have a few weeks to think about an idea?" And now there is, there is a, there is a demand for everything now. I-- The tricky thing is I don't really see that changing, you know? I, I think you have to learn to think and work fast, I think is, is the reality of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, you know, we're, we're in Cannes-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... International Festival of Creativity. Um, there's obviously many other aspects to Cannes as it's matured and changed and grown up over the years. We've got the Ad Techs here.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: We have MarTechs. There's obviously technology inv- involved in, in VML as well, of course. Um, where do you think the, you know, the, the c- creative conversation is, is going in Cannes? Um, how do you see that it, it may have changed perhaps over, over the last few years?
Speaker 2: Um, you know, I, I think what you just said is certainly true. It's, I've seen countless articles written about how it's now the, the Cannes Ad Tech festival and, um, the creative soul's been lost. Um, but you certainly, certainly that's a conversation you hear. I have to say, and I was lucky enough last summer to serve on a jury. When you are in the jury rooms or you are in the palais, where I'll be in, in a couple of hours looking at the work, what doesn't change is at the heart of this thing, the great ideas are great ideas, and they make you jealous and they make you inspired and they rev you up for next year. And I, I, I don't think... Yes, a lot of stuff has grown up around it, but I don't think that that notion at the heart of this has really changed, certainly since I've been coming here which has been a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I'm-
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: ... I'm, I'm looking forward.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'll be doing the same.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'll be joining you this evening and, and every evening frankly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh, and I'm very much looking forward to Friday.
Speaker 2: And, and by the way, that's the crazy thing is that there are so many people who come here now who never step foot in the theater, uh, o- on the y- ... nights of the, uh, of the, uh, of the week. Um, and that really is, I- you- I go in there to just recharge myself, and again, make myself jealous in the best possible way 'cause you're, you're ... It's just it, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I never reach Friday.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The k- the grand finale, as it were.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, you know, so many people who are, I guess, on the fringe, you know, head out of town prior-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... to that.
Speaker 2: Uh, did you say are you going to stay through Friday? Or are you heading-
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1: I'll, I'll be, be there on Friday-
Speaker 2: I'll, I'll see you there
Speaker 1: ... and then I'll, I'll be in the Carlton afterwards.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I will probably see you there as well.
Speaker 1: Um, was actually thinking about awards as well. Um, how am I gonna frame this? So within agencies we all have had awards conversations. How, you know, we're, we're, you know, let's, let's get something out, guys. You know, we want to enter Cannes, we wanna enter, you know, some other prize. Um, can those conversations sometimes send people in the wrong direction because there's pressure being put o- put on them?
Speaker 2: Um, I think where it goes wrong is when the awards track or the awar- awards conversation becomes separated from, from actual client business, and that I think that can happen. I think there are agencies in which you will -there will almost be, there is our day-to-day business and then there's this separate thing that we do called Cannes, and I think when those things become too far apart, that can be a dangerous thing. Um, but I think the, the positives of, of awards culture far outweigh that, and w- I find what it does is it, much like me being inspired by being in the ballet, it kind of sets a, a north star for our industry every year, and it gives, it gives our creatives something to shoot for, um, and it gives us something to work towards.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. I mean j- I would have, would have thought that you would, you'd think that every day should be doing your best, right? And-
Speaker 2: Of, uh, eh, of course, and tha- and that's the goal.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But I think, I do think som- sometimes a danger in modern agency culture is you start to view the awards job as almost this separate thing, and I think that's, that's not healthy, you know? But it, but I think that's not what anybody wants. You know what I mean? You, you wanna, you wanna be s- both solving real client problems and, and, and at the same time doing work that is creatively interesting, provocative, bold, brave, all growth.
Speaker 1: And clearly if you're part of a team that wins a lion, it's transformational in your career.
Speaker 2: And the, and the work that you see here al- almost inevitably, the best work that you see here does both of those things, you know?
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I normally ask this question when I'm sort of c- coming to the end, but, uh, advice you'd provide to a younger individual who's either at the start of their career or perhaps looking to enter a career in the world of media and advertising.
Speaker 2: Um, yeah, and of course I get asked this. I, you know, ah, I... This is, this almost sounds simplistic, but I think half the battle is, is, is just pure excitement and, and loving this industry and your potential within it. I think that when I look at the younger people at my agency, the ones who are thriving are, they bring an energy to it that is infectious, and every creative director wants those creatives on whatever accounts they're on. And it's kind of sometimes as simple as that. Like, obviously you need to be talented, and obviously we want people with great taste and a vision, but half the battle is just, is, like, unbridled en- enthusiasm, and I think when you can see that in somebody, some of the rest can actually, um, be built. Um, I think nothing can replace that kind of energy.
Speaker 1: Fantastic. And I'm just gonna ask you a couple of off-the-cuff quickfire questions. So is there any brand campaigns that you've seen recently that you find particularly inspiring, uh, perhaps particularly creative?
Speaker 2: Um, yeah. Let me, um, think. Obviously we're immersed in it and surrounded in it. I'm, I'm going to support some colleagues tonight within VML, uh, who are winning for two ideas that I'm not connected to, but I, I just love these ideas, so I'll tell you about those. Um, one is an idea, it's a, it's a pro bono, um, and it's doing well within health, and it's called Beat Cancer Off. Um, and it's based in a, a true medical fact that men who masturbate at a, at a relatively high rate monthly have a lower chance of prostate cancer.
Speaker 1: Really? Wow.
Speaker 2: Um, and so they turned that insight into this animated, um, anthem of euphemisms. So it's this i- infectious song. Um, every line in the song is a different euph- euphemism for, uh, masturbation, from spanking the monkey a- and on. And then each one is brought to life with a different style of animation, and it's, it's, um, silly, but obviously serious in its intent, and it's, it's just a joy to watch. So I love that. Um, I'm gonna go cheer that on. Um, and then, and the other one that I'll tell you about, um, is done by m- some of my colleagues who work on Coca Cola, which, uh, I'm, uh, drinking right now. Um, but there is an idea called The Last Coke In The Desert, and it has to do with an insight that I would have had no idea about this insi- insight. But in Latin America, and specifically in Mexico, people use the phrase "the last Coke in the desert" if somebody is sort of, um, maybe a little, um... I'm trying to think of how to say it. If you think you're sort of special, you might say, "Well, he, he's, he thinks he's the last Coke in the desert." It's, it's if somebody has a high opinion of themselves, they think they're the last Coke in the desert.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So it's a funny expression, but inherently actually a negative-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... expression, and the campaign turns it into a positive. And they went out into the most remote deserts of Mexico and found the literal last Cokes in the desert, which are these small grocers who sell Coca-Cola products in the middle of nowhere, and they celebrate these little shopkeepers. And it's beautiful and charming, and it, it, it says a lot about Coca-Cola-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... in a, in a kind of a great way.
Speaker 1: It's so, so true.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's incredible. You know, you see those places and sor- all sorts of places in the world. I was thinking th- in the back of my mind there, yeah, I've been out Pretty much in the wilderness of Brazil and-
Speaker 2: And you see these, yeah
Speaker 1: ... there's that person who's sat there with the old school, um, crate stacked up.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1: And they've always got a bottle of cola for you.
Speaker 2: This was actually sort of an outgrowth of an idea from a couple of years ago done by the same team which was called Thanks For Co-Creating, and that was a celebration of those, i- in the types of, um, little groceries you were talking about, the really rudimentary, um, hand painted signs that people do where they're just totally y- on one level desecrating the Coca-Cola brand standards by doing these handwritten Coke signs but the brand celebrated those. Sort of said, "We see the imperfections of these-"
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ..."hand drawn signs and we, and we love them," and there's, there's a space for that. So I think that's a, you know, that's a, a great beautiful idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's, that's great isn't it? Actually when I was, I was talking to Justin who, you know, my cohost-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ....I guess.
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: Um, this morning we were talking about the idea of brands or it may have been last night or whatever when we're chilling out as you do. Um, and we'd, we were saying actually the best brands are brands that are quite comfortable with losing control-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... because it means that they have the fanaticism around their business-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... uh, and they have the brand love.
Speaker 2: Yes. I, I completely agree and I heard because that piece of work was a really interesting one and one certainly that was very famous for our agency, I heard someone saying, and it was true, that what was great about it is that they relinquished control but you couldn't have done it had you not built this very recognized brand for years by being very strict about what it was, but then that allows you to at some point loosen the reins and let people, um, take your brand and, and, and tell your brand story for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Fantastic. One last question.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: So, um, I don't know, like a go-to resource that you might have. So it c- could be, uh, a favorite book, it might be a hobby, it could be a podcast. Could be something that, uh, always helps gain it ... You can't search for inspiration, it finds you sometimes-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ...but, um, but helps inspire you.
Speaker 2: Um, I mean I, I de- definitely it will sound obvious, but going to art galleries and museums, that's my happiest place in the world. Um, you were mentioning your photography background. I am an avid, avid, um, not only fan of photography and art photography, I'm an avid taker of photos. And so to me, my happiest place is being maybe at The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York with my camera in hand on a sunny Saturday afternoon looking at the work, the, the, the artwork, but also looking at the people who are looking at the artwork. To me, there's nothing more sort of stimulating than that.
Speaker 1: Beautiful. I can just picture it in my mind now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much Tom-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ...you've been a wonderful guest on the show today.
Speaker 2: This has been great. This has been great. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 2: All right. Bye