Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: Welcome to The Business of Marketing. My name's John Horsley, I'm the host of the show today. We're recording live at Cannes Lions. I have the absolute pleasure and delight of being joined by Emma Armstrong, who is CEO at BBDO New York, and also the Global Transformation Officer of BBDO Worldwide. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks, John. It's lovely to be here. It is 9:00 AM in Cannes, so anybody listening just needs to know that it is 9:00 AM in Cannes as you judge what I'm saying .
Speaker 1: Um, as a starter for 10, it would be great if you could just give the audience or listeners a, a heads-up, what, uh, attracted you to the world of marketing and advertising in the first instance?
Speaker 2: So I started my career working for a very small charity in the UK, there were 11 of us, and although my job title I think was technically marketing manager or, or something along those lines, you ended up doing, as is always the case in any small team, almost everything. So I organized the Commonwealth Day observance in Westminster Abbey that the Queen and a bunch of other people came to, all the way through to fixing the printer and the franking machine, um, and doing a lot of mail merges and envelope stuffing along the way. So it was the very early days of the internet and we made CD-ROMs. Everyone probably under 40 needs to look that up. Um, we made websites, we did a, a bunch of different, uh, digital things, and we used agencies to do that. And every time I interacted with an agency they tried to hire me, so at some point after the fourth job , uh, offer I thought, "I can't stay in charities for the rest of my career." You know, I'm really young. They... They're wonderful places but they aren't necessarily full of money to train you, um, and a ton more, a ton of opportunities. So I went and worked for Agency.com and started building the internet with some incredibly wonderful, curious, fabulous people.
Speaker 1: Brilliant. That's making me think about Tomato and AntiRom.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: Did, Did you work with those guys?
Speaker 2: I, I didn't. I worked with ... Oh my gosh, I can't even remember who they were. They were, you know, a bunch of 24-year olds who were like, "Let's make the internet," and it was, it was so much fun. Nobody knew what we were doing, so we just figured it out together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I knew quite a lot of the Agency.com guys back in the day. Um, so you talk, uh, a lot about creativity as a driver for growth. What does that mean in practice in terms of the clients that you work with?
Speaker 2: So I talk a lot about being CEO demanded, um, not because I want everybody to have a tattoo of our brand, um, on their body, but because we are at our best business partners. And if we're business partners who are using creativity to drive the business forward and solve business, tough business challenges, then as a CEO you would want them to know that we are making a measurable difference to, to their business. Um, I think it's essential. You know, we're ... This is not art school, this is, this is business. And we, I always think that agencies hold an incredible place in, in the marketing ecosystem. Um, we are translators of the world into the brands. No matter how outward-focused you are as a marketing team, as a client, then there is a centrifugal fu- force that pulls you into the, into your company, and we really translate the world out back into the brands, and we translate the brands or the products or, you know, the positioning back out into the world. So, um, that, that really is an, an essential part of growing a thriving business.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm really interested in types of problems you fix. I wonder if they're inherent at different stages of maturity, perhaps for instance, in terms of digital maturity within the client business, um, or at different stages of a business' growth or transformation.
Speaker 2: That ... I love that question. Um, I think there's probably two different factors. There, there's the, the cultural and competitive landscape that often creates very similar situations for brands. Um, sometimes they face them slightly later or earlier than other brands because they're at different levels of maturity or their, maybe their category is a little more complex, um, so harder to, to disrupt initially but eventually get disrupted by the same forces, um, th- that's affecting everything else. And then there's, there's the technology landscape. So, you know, the ... it's almost as though I think there's probably two vectors that, that attack clients. But one of the many things I love about running an agency, working agency side, is we get to... I get to talk to incredible marketers and, you know, C-suite people and, you know, entry level people all day, every day. So we can aggregate that into themes and trends that are happening across the agents- across the agency landscape, across the brand landscape, and then use it for the benefit of other clients that may be at a slightly different level in their disruption journey. Um, and hopefully help them leapfrog over problems that they might otherwise find naturally occur, so.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm wondering if, if one of those problems or... Actually, I'm gonna reframe it as a, a challenge, is perhaps the internal communications of the client that you're working with.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: So what I mean by that is the CMO being able to communicate effectively with board, gain buy-in, um, certainly have the dialogue with the CFO who's taking more share in terms of-
Speaker 2: Yep
Speaker 1: ... what's happening in marketing.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Uh, is that an area that, um, that you work fairly heavily with your clients in?
Speaker 2: I love this question. Um, in fact, just before this podcast we were talking about, uh, establishing a common language and common goals. Um, one of the things I think- That has differentiated us as an agency over the last 10 years, um, and also has become a, a core tenet of what we believe is establishing common language. That's within our own agency, you know, an agency has to mean the same things when they use the same words, um, and then with our clients, and then helping our clients establish that within their own ecosystem. Um, one of the first things I talk to most clients about is stakeholder management. You know, who do they have to get, uh, buy-in from? What do those people want? How do they communicate? Um, how frequently? You know, w- what's their knowledge level of marketing? What's their belief in marketing? And then how can we help them create things that truly move the ball forward for, for everybody? Um, you can't assume that a CEO is in support of marketing efforts. You can't assume that everybody on the board actually knows where the money goes and why it's beneficial to, you know, create the new platform and DBAs and campaign, um, and how important measurement is. So, um, I think just don't assume. And our job is not just to make something for the marketing team. Our job is to make something that moves the business forward for the entire organization. And to do that, you've gotta help the marketing team manage their own stakeholders.
Speaker 1: Sure. So that's in terms of building the business case on th- the client side and, and helping them obviously sell it into the stakeholders within that company. Uh, in terms of creativity, it's slightly less tangible-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... to a certain extent. Um, but it's, it's not decoupled from being strategic.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So has the case in terms of how you build the business case for creativity changed dramatically at all over the last five years?
Speaker 2: So I think I'm a, I'm a bit of a permanent optimist. Um, I'm very h- I have healthy paranoia and, and I'm a permanent optimist which I think hopefully makes this, ma- makes me a good, uh, business partner. I think we're getting closer and closer to proving out the case for creativity, um, something we've all been talking about as an industry for a very, very long time. And, you know, I started in digital. I spent 10 years in digital where you could at least measure some things. Um, so I come from a world where, you know, figure out the KPIs, figure out what success looks like, figure out how you're gonna measure success, set a benchmark, and then supersede it. Um, that's a ... It, it sounds very obvious. It's not necessarily how everybody has grown up through different components of the industry. Um, I do think that with, uh, you know, unified audience ID and more and more, um, data sets and, you know, end-to-end platforms that the Whole Foods and others are building, um, we're getting closer to proving out that something that was a little more intangible before is actually the key driver of your business. We're not there yet, so, um, but yeah, I think, I think we're getting, think we're getting closer.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that there's been a groundswell towards brand, uh, and creative thinking that's driven by AI?
Speaker 2: Um, t- yes. Yeah, I do actually. It's funny, um, I was talking to a client a couple of weeks ago about AI. I do, I think we've sort of gone over the peak of hubris into people are now using it in the day-to-day of their business. I think people are more aware of the cost of it, um, financial costs and also, uh, lack of creativity costs. You know, i- the first thing that we need to focus on is the incredible humans and their brains 'cause all creativity is, is taking two things that haven't been brought together, um, together to, to solve, uh, a business problem or any problem really. And I, I'm a passionate believer in human brains for doing that. AI can definitely help us get there. Um, it can shortcut things. It can analyze data. It can analyze, um, you know, a bunch of documents quickly. It can make you think in a slightly different way, but all it is based on is everything that's gone before. So there is a regression to the mean that it creates, um, that I, I think you need incredible humans doing amazing creative things, and that really translates into building brands that stand out from the means. So yeah, I do. I do actually.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's making me think of, uh, a person I had on the show recently who was former AKQA, uh, and he was talking about his perspective on AI, saying that he believed it made smart people smarter and creative people more creative, which I thought was-
Speaker 2: Oh, I like that
Speaker 1: ... quite interesting.
Speaker 2: I like that. Yeah. That's good.
Speaker 1: Um, gonna change topic slightly. So when you arrived in New York as president in 2019, what was the first thing that you focused on, and why?
Speaker 2: At, uh, at FCB New York?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, so, uh, I've learnt through almost, well, through every single job that I've been in, it's really about the people on the team. Um, so the first thin- the reason I took the job in the first place was it was a completely blank slate. Um, the remit was, "Here is the number you need to hit, and do what you need to do. Hire who you want, um, you know, part ways with whoever you want, and just build a really strong team and, and make a great agency." So it, it all comes down to, to the people, and I was very fortunate. There were some incredible people already there. We brought onboard some amazing other people, um, and built just one of the best teams I've ever been part of.
Speaker 1: How ... Yeah, really interested in terms of, you know, building the agency, building the culture. How do you think about building culture within a, an agency business?
Speaker 2: We focus on culture a lot. Um, and it sounds very simple. Again, it comes back to the people. Um, g- We spent a lot of time thinking about the place that we want to work at. So, the mantra really, and I stole this from Tyler who is our, uh, old global CEO, um, "we wanted to build the agency that we always wants to work at with the people and the clients that we w- always wanted to work with and for." So, that sounds, uh, maybe a little trite. It, it really became a core belief system. So you know what, what... How do we want to be treated? Um, what access to information do we want? Um, how do we want to be supported? You know, I am, I am only one person. My job and my team's job is to create an environment and a culture that attracts the absolute best talent, um, on behalf of our clients and creates an environment where they can do absolutely the best work of their careers. Um, and that's, it, it's, it's very, it's easy to say, it's hard to do, but if you come at it with a human perspective first and think about what you would like at a wor- a place of work then it actually becomes pretty easy. And so.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was always taught, you know, sort of looking back to the '90s that it's never necessarily a bad thing to do to walk away from a deal.
Speaker 2: Mm. Yes.
Speaker 1: If it's not, if it's not the right deal.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Um, and if you do it in the right way, that client or potential client will come back to you at the right point of time with what you can provide them.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Rather than just making the sale for, you know, the sake of, of-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... of getting another badge, another logo.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, and I think y- you kind of talked to that to a certain extent.
Speaker 2: Agree. I agree. I mean, one of the many, many, many things that, um, I think the whole team appreciated, uh, about that period of time and about, you know, how we built the agency was we really ended up running what felt like an independent agency within a holdco. So we had all the backup of a holdco. We had access to, um, Acxiom and to the data and to, you know, teams of specialists across, across the entire network. And we had full autonomy to as long as we were, as long as we were hitting our numbers, um, then we were, we could really do whatever we want. Um, that honestly included saying no to a lotta pitches. Um, it feels like a hard decision at the time. You hold on with your knuckles and say, "All right, it's gonna be okay." But I think every decision we made we, we felt very good about in the end.
Speaker 1: Um, in terms when you're building your leadership team-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: .... what attributes do you look for and why?
Speaker 2: So, I think, uh, a shared belief in the ultimate goal of, um, building a world beating creative agency that makes incredible work, that moves the needle for our clients business. And then people with very different skillsets. Um, so you know, there's no, there's no point in having, and actually m- most every single person on the management team and probably the agency would agree, you definitely don't need three Emmas. Um, but you do need people who have complementary skill sets so that you create a high functioning team that is all running in the same direction but comes at that problem of running in the same direction from a different angle and brl-... brings different skill sets to bear. Um, so we, you end up working, you know, and, and complimenting each other. Um, I think you can run much faster. It's also way more fun. I learn something every single time I talk to somebody at the agency and that's, that's really fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, just wanna change topic slightly. So looking at AI adoption within your own business, where have you found that most useful and, and you know, where is it I, I guess providing a level of superpower?
Speaker 2: Um, I think it w-... exactly what you said before, um, from, uh, the, the person at AKQA. It, it makes smarter people smarter. So those tasks that, and this is gonna be s- no surprise to anyone listening to podcasts hopefully. Those tasks that used to be, um, time consuming and more, more rote but had to be done, um, foreshortening that time just allows the incredibly smart people that we have at the agency to spend more time thinking, talking concepting, you know, really attacking a problem from all sides rather than on the mundane day-to-day tasks of, you know, whether it be data analysis, whether it be, um, taking a bunch of research and synthesizing it. Um, it allows people to think more which I, I dunno, I think is way more, way more valuable use of their time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, so as the technology gets more powerful let's say and b- i mean it really is. Uh, um, we've start seeing, you know, releases every other month. Um, what's, yeah, where does the humans still come in? Where does like human judgment sit? Um, and where, where do you believe it shouldn't be replaced?
Speaker 2: Um, that's a good question. I, I think, I actually think human judgment has become way more important because, you know, as we talked about before, when no matter how powerful the technology it's always built on existing things. And so it will always push us. As humans we regress to the mean. Um, AI drives us to the mean. So I think that human, human thought has never before been more important, human judgment. Um, I actually it's, it's, it's a, one of my biggest worries is that by if, if we use AI r- incorrectly and we over rely on it and just say, "Oh, it's gonna replace all the junior people," then in five years time where are we gonna have people who've built up that judgment, built that experience, who can then lead the next wave and the next wave of, um, marketing projects or, or brand, you know, brand problems whatev- attacking every problem that clients have. Um, both on the client and the agency side. So I think, I think focusing on training people to think and not use AI as a crutch to do that is more important than ever before.
Speaker 1: Do you think AIs make people better communicators
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I hadn't thought about that. Um, maybe. Yeah, maybe. I mean, I've certainly put a few emails through, uh, AI and said, "Make this," you know, "a little nicer." So probably.
Speaker 1: I've done that.
Speaker 2: Is that too honest?
Speaker 1: No, I've done that. Uh, 'cause-
Speaker 2: Hi, people listening to the podcast.
Speaker 1: ... I tend, I tend to write a little bit short sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, not, not rude but just with brevity.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Speaker 1: Um, no, what I mean by that is, um, to have a better understanding of their business that they work for and the proposition of that business. So, uh, as an example, I t- I spoke to a, a friend of mine who doesn't work in our industry, and he made the point that ... And I asked what he'd learnt, and one of the things that he said was, "Actually, I'm gonna use AI to find out more about the company that I work for-"
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: "... so I can represent and present it better", which I thought was really interesting. And that's telling me that from a, from a top level-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... that, uh, at, at board level perhaps there is a communication issue, uh, and perhaps the CEO also needs to be a, a chief storyteller is probably a good way of describing it-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... so that all the people within the business understand the mission, the purpose, and, and, and so on.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that. There's, there's almost two ... For, for me, there's almost two things in there. One is w- one is definitely helping people become better communicators because if they're not naturally a storyteller, then yes, helping them get to a basic arc of here's a bunch of information, how could I tell this in a compelling and easy to understand way, um, definitely will help. There's also underlying that, um, something that you're pushing at which is can we use it to help people learn in different ways bec- and the two things obviously are, are intrinsically correlated. Um, but I love that, and actually I was ... So o- on my way to Cannes I stopped off and saw my parents in England, and I was, uh, my dad drove me to the airport. Thanks, Dad. Um, you never get too old for, for a trip, a parental trip to the airport. But we were talking about the rise of, um, all the Chinese, um, car brands in, in the UK, and I was using AI search to answer a bunch of questions that we had, which is really what you're pushing at. So, you know, th- I think probably our interest would've tapered off after the second search if it was just basic search 'Cause you'd then have to search the company website and, you know, answering very pointed questions about the business becomes dramatically easier. So yeah, I think learning, yes communicating, but also my learning style has changed. Um, I'm a voracious learner, so it's ... I, I actually value that tremendously.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Ho- No, 100%. Um, where do we go now?
Speaker 2: I don't know. Sorry about the story about my dad everybody.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: Hi, Dad.
Speaker 1: I though it was, I thought it was great stories, f- very human. Actually, there is that as well isn't there, this idea of, you know, technology sort of ... The humanization of technology I think is probably quite-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... a nice term.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's fun- Yes, I totally agree, and actually even from my way, way, way back agency.com days, um, I have a presentation, I think it might be on a USB stick somewhere in a pile of USB sticks, but it was all about, um, you know, humans are humans are humans.
Speaker 1: Hm.
Speaker 2: And all technology does is just allow us to do what humans have done for millennia, um, certainly thousands and thousands of years, a little bit easier or faster, um, make something more accessible.
Speaker 1: Hm.
Speaker 2: So e- everything goes back to the people. You can't ... You cannot replace people with technology. You have to focus on the humans and insights and what they want. Um, it, it's where it all starts and ends.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And y- I mean your story just then again about being in the car with your father et cetera looking up the car brands, what you're also talking to there is a fundamental shift in terms of customer journey.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1: Uh, and the customer experience-
Speaker 2: Yep
Speaker 1: ... as well. How are you helping your clients, uh, be better equipped and un- understand, um, and communicate the fact that things changing, uh, just rate of knots to the board, you know. And the boards saying, "God, we got this burning question. We're losing all traffic coming to our website."
Speaker 2: Yup.
Speaker 1: "We've got a transactional site. If it continues like this, we've not got a business."
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. I think it comes down to exact- uh, your question a few questions ago which is are you seeing, um, are you seeing the rise of brand become even more important. Um, and I think the, the answer to media frag- fragmentation, that's hard word to say early in the morning, media fragmentation, uh, and a more, uh, a, a more spaghetti like consumer journey. I mean c- let's be honest, a k- a consumer jour- There was never really a funnel. There are stages of purchase for sure, um, but the touch points have always been multi various. So the, the answer is build a really strong brand and ensure that it's consistent, that you have, uh, distinctive brand assets, the, and a, and a platform, um, a br- a really good brand platform that then shows up every single, at every single touchpoint in a way that is both right for the brand and right for that touchpoint. And if you do that and you really focus on those things, it doesn't really matter what the journey is. Um, it means that people will get a consistent and incremental view of your brand, and if you're doing it right they will understand what you're selling, they will understand why they want it, they will have an emotional connection to it, and your business will thrive. Um, and I think that's the difference between ... I actually think one of the biggest problems in marketing is not necessarily a, a misunderstanding or, or a lack of focus on brand, you know people get very excited about performance and all those other things that help, but, um, short term relationships with agencies where you use them for small campaigns or small individual elements and don't have a partner that looks at brand building and helps you really show up in the right way and the right, uh, at the right time, um, I think i- is really detrimental to brand building, so ... And, and companies and growth I mean, which is what every single person wants.
Speaker 1: That also reminds me, I-
Speaker 2: Sorry, I got on a bit of a
Speaker 1: No. That's, that's perfect. I-
Speaker 2: An Emma rant
Speaker 1: I had a, um, conversation with, uh, chief ... I wanna say it was chief creative officer at, eh, Gravity recently, and I really liked the language that he used, and he talks about the idea of a brand is an idea that is b- basically owned in somebody else's head, you know?
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh, I was like, "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense." And he was talking to the fact that, you know, I guess over the, the years there's been a massive investment in performance, um, and that's targeting the 5% of people who may just be a market, and probably less than that at that point in time, um, versus the 95% who haven't quite come into market yet. Um, so he was talking about, um, how do you cast a wider net, um, be focusing on the 95%, so that at the point when they come up to creating a shortlist, you're gonna be on that shortlist regardless.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh... I was talking to a colleague last week actually, and this is, this is such a great example of exactly what you're talking about. So, uh, Francesco, I'm really sorry. I'm stealing your, your story. He, um, for his 10th anniversary, wedding anniversary, he went to one of the Caribbean islands, and the reason that he and his wife went there was because when he was growing up, um, probably, I don't know, 30 years ago, 25 years ago, there was a poster of this, a, a, a travel poster of this island with this beautiful cerulean blue sea, and he looked at it and he so wanted to go there, and it lodged in his memory. And when they were talking about where to go, let's call it 25 years later, he's like, he remembered that poster and he's like, "I want to go there." So that's exactly what you're talking about. You know, brand memory structures are built with consistency and over time. Um, and you, yes, it's hard to measure, but we, we all know the famous brands, we all know the brands that we have an emotional connection to that may or may not be logical in our, in our brains. Um, and building those are ... It, it's fun and it's essential for the, for the health of a business.
Speaker 1: Where do you see the future of agencies? So, you know, the agency model, I, I believe is under attack at this point in time. How do you see it changing and evolving?
Speaker 2: I think this is, this is both optimistic, um, and realistic I hope. I, I think that again, you know, we've just talked about AI, we've just talked about the regression to the mean. I think that brand building has, is, is more important than ever before, and those skills are, um, less and less prevalent. So, uh, I think that agencies will always have a place. Um, you know, it's ... They're, we're an essential tool in a marketer's toolkit, and as everything gets more and more ... What did you, what did you say? Sameism? Is it sameism? Or as, as sameism, which is a new word that John has just created and I love, um, as sameism becomes more and more prevalent, um, you know, our job is to create something that builds a brand, um, sells product, drives a business forward, but gets an outsized impact. Um, and I, that, that's how businesses and brands will survive. So I think there will always be a place for, for agencies, for really, really smart business partners who are gonna come and help you grow your business.
Speaker 1: Great. I'm just going to ask one last question-
Speaker 2: Yeah. Of course
Speaker 1: ... sort of to wind up, which is, what advice would you provide to a younger individual that was looking to enter the, the world of marketing, advertising media?
Speaker 2: Oh, that's great. Um, be really curious, um, and, and don't limit. Don't, don't have a preconceived notion about where you wanna work and what you wanna do. Um, I'm very biased. I have done five or six different careers probably in the last 30 years, and every single time I have learnt something that is so useful, learnt many, many things that are so useful for the next stage of my journey. Um, I think that, that as an ad-- At our best, agencies are Swiss Army knives, and so go get as much experience as you possibly can wherever you can. Um, learn what you love, make contacts, and have fun.
Speaker 1: Wonderful. Look, thanks, Emma. You've been a fantastic guest on the show today. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, John