Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: Welcome to The Business of Marketing. My name's John Horsley, I'm the host of the show today. We're recording live at Cannes Lions. Uh, I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Victoria Usher who is CEO and founder at GingerMay. Hi, Victoria. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Hi, John. Lovely to be here, albeit with all the drilling and everything else that's happening in the Mondrian today.
Speaker 1: I'm sure we can work the magic and-
Speaker 1: ... and cut that noise out.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The magic of podcasts and, and tech nowadays.
Speaker 2: Always live.
Speaker 1: Um, as a starter for 10, it'd be really great to understand what attracted you to the world of marketing, PR, media that you're in today?
Speaker 2: The dark arts. Um, do you know what? I've always had an absolute fascination with ... Actually, it was advertising. When I was a kid, I would watch the adverts more than I did the, the shows. I'd find the shows really boring. So, um, I kind of always wanted to know about segmentation and audiences, so I had it from a very early age, although I couldn't, I couldn't articulate it. And actually, I went through a process of going into politics first. I went into politics as a researcher for two MPs, then I went into a data analyst role. And then in, in that role actually, I had this incredible woman who bec- has actually become my mentor and she's now, um, uh, and director of, of GingerMay, advisor. Um, and she saw in me the, the passion for marketing. I'd always wanted to lean into anything they were doing in the business that was marketing led, I was leaning into. So she then took me over and, uh, helped me to develop, and basically it blossomed into where I am today. It was a kind of a wonky path, but I got there in the end, basically, and it is absolutely my passion.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I love communications. I think it's because fundamentally I love people-
Speaker 1: Okay
Speaker 2: … and there's a real psychology behind marketing and PR and communications. And when you understand people, I think it, you naturally become good at, at, at things like PR and marketing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's a passion for, for communication at the end of the day.
Speaker 2: It's, it's a passion for, yeah, people-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: … and communicating better because I think we were just having a chat before we started recording actually about, um, how poor communications can be. And I think so much of it is that people don't really understand the psychology of how people take information in and how they listen. And what people do is they just think that just by vomiting out, like, as much content as we can or as much information, that that's going to get them somewhere, it's gonna get them from A to B, and B is where they want to be, and quite often that's a very thoughtless journey with no understanding of, of what people think about you and what your image is and how you're perceived when you actually, when, when you activate those, those kind of events where you're just throwing out absolutely anything and hoping something will stick.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: And you, you, you and I were talking about this with AI as well particularly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: People are just using it needlessly. So, you know, I've, I've, I've been in marketing for years and I've seen it progress through. You know, some of the best people that are good at things like PR and marketing are those that are very thoughtful, that really consider their audiences and think about really, really, really carefully crafting what they want to say, so every time they're in the public domain, how do they want to be perceived and what they want to be saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, we were talking about the idea, and I know it's not a word, but the idea of sameism, as it were. Um-
Speaker 2: You've just coined it. You heard it here first
Speaker 1: ... ChatGPT, generate me a white paper.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know? And frankly, what you get then is white papers look like all the white papers of the past rather than something new.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and what you're lacking there is the, uh, originality, the, the tone of voice-
Speaker 2: Hmm. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: … the personality-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: … the story arcs and so on.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Um, and you know, I've, I've seen it across number of businesses, research companies, various other businesses that I've been involved with where, you know, clients have slowed down on activities-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: … and so on. But, you know, frankly, they're coming back now, uh, and coming back in droves because they're looking for, I guess, the race to the top, not the race to the bottom-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: … and they want to differentiate themselves.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Uh, are you experiencing the same in your world?
Speaker 2: Yes. I think if you're talking about people using, are using AI in particular, for example-
Speaker 1: Correct
Speaker 2: …we've seen, uh ... I suppose the last two years have been quite interesting in our industry where there's been such a pivot. You know, there's been a huge pivot. There's been a, a little bit of a recession, and I think what's been going on in the agencies has taken ... A- and, and technology in general, and the investment in technology has taken a little bit of the punch out the market and there's been a lack of confidence, and I think that perhaps probably made people focus in other areas, maybe product, whatever it may be. Um, AI has really confused matters, and I think that's what it is, is a confusion, and at the moment some players are coming in and trying to take advantage of that. And what I see as a communications expert, I guess, having worked in it for so long-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... is I see the people that are doing really well are using AI in a, a very thoughtful, considered way. But as you point out, they are, they are actually inputting their own opinion and their own footprint within that, and that's where people go so seriously wrong.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: So, you know, we've had ... I, I know companies that have said, "No, we don't need to have communications anymore because AI is gonna do all of that for us." I mean, I'm, I'm literally standing at the sidelines going, 'L- let's see.' And of course they're just churning out all of this pulp that's just all the same, nothing standing out. There was a journalist in City AM a couple of weeks ago described it as froth. So, you know, you've got a tiny little bit of milk in a cup, and then obviously you're fluffing up to a full cup, and it's still the same milk. There's nothing, there's no more substance in it. You've just added another 400 words in that original 200 words, and that's how it feels. For people like me who read through, I'm like, where is your point of view here? Where is your, where's your actual point of difference What are you actually saying? You sound like some kind of preppy American 22-year-old.
Speaker 1: Sure
Speaker 2: That just sounds very confident.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But you're actually, you're saying n- there's nothing in there. And, you know, you, you, you sounded good at the beginning, but then we start to look into it and think there is nothing. It's basically, it's soulless. It's soulless content is what I'm seeing out there at the moment, so.
Speaker 1: I love this.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love the idea of froth.
Speaker 2: It-
Speaker 1: I've never thought about that, but you're right
Speaker 2: ... it totally is.
Speaker 1: You know, it's, it's all the filler-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... and, you know-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... none of the substance.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Never in the history of mankind has content ever been so perfect. The syntax is absolutely correct. The verb is in the right place. The tense is absolutely correct. And we're all looking at it going, "Wow, this sounds amazing," because what we've all been worried about, and we, again, we were talking about this, you know, marketing directors have been worried about sounding smart and not getting mistakes in their grammar. And now, of course, everybody's so bowled over because they can create great content. But before we had incorrect con- or w- the grammar wasn't maybe perfect, but it was bloody opinionated.
Speaker 1: But it was human.
Speaker 2: And it actually had content in there.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Actually had a point of view. And I want those, I want those days back again. I want to have, I want to have actual points of view and pointers and things that I can learn rather than this froth, as we're talking about, that just saysnothing. It doesn't even... When you really boil it down, there is zero substance within that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's boring to read.
Speaker 1: Are you seeing a, a bit of groundswell? So over the last 10 years, for instance, um, certainly tech companies have been chasing performance at all cost.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that there's a transition now? And it's, I think it's maybe partly informed by AI-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... um, towards the art of good quality storytelling s-
Speaker 2: S-
Speaker 1: And investment in brand.
Speaker 2: Yes. So I think, uh, over the last 10 years, I think there, it varies. It varies hugely. I see some really good examples where people are investing properly in storytelling and doing it really well and creating a real identity for themselves around a particular hook or a narrative that they really want to own, and they do it in a really clever, smart, non-pushy way. And then I see people doing it in a very ugly, thoughtless way where they're just smashing you with their content everywhere, which actually just makes me s- step back. So the thoughtful way, I, I literally... It's like dating, right? If you, if you persist with somebody, if you hassle them, they're gonna just step back. They don't want it anymore. They're literally like, "Leave, leave me alone. Just back off." And that is what communications is. If you're just in their face all the time, and/or sales, if you're in the, in your face and irritating, they'll make you back off. But actually, if you invite somebody in to a space, they're more likely to step forward, "Tell me about yourself"
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You've got to give people that space to step in, and s- so much storytelling doesn't actually do that, where it's got c- really clever hook, it's got r- really clear narrative, and most importantly, at the bottom of it all is what are you giving to that person? So the best storytelling is something where it tells somebody something that they may have never known before. It's a unique point of view or something that's gonna help them in their job. That's what makes great storytelling. Something that's really interesting and dynamic. But so many people just think they've just got to blast you with their story and, and about themselves. Here's something about me. Here's a bit more about me, and me, me, me, me, me, and I want you to buy me 'cause I'm so brilliant, and look at me, and a bit more about me. And that's not storytelling.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's just selling in a really crass, ugly way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. T- I totally agree. Totally agree.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Actually, it does take me back in my mind to the early days of social media, um, and companies getting online and shouting and so on.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: But you'd never walk into a bar and start shouting at people.
Speaker 2: Of course you wouldn't.
Speaker 1: You would ask people questions-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... and you would join a conversation.
Speaker 2: actively listen and-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... exactly engage them in the conversation, find out about them first.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, social media, I mean, still I'm on WhatsApp groups where people are just literally, they think what they have to do is just shout as much as they can and just persistently post, and it just switches people off.
Speaker 1: So I wanna come back to a word that you used, which was space. Actually, I think that's great. Um, do you feel that the brands that you're working with are creating more space for the executives within those companies to be profiled and positioned as, as thought leaders? Th- I'm seeing a-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... little bit of a shift, a bit of change there, so I'm, I'm curious to see.
Speaker 2: Are you seeing that they've, they are doing more of that?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: See what you mean. Yes, because I think there's m- there's becoming more of an understanding of how important that personality profiling is, and that has never changed. So if you look at traditional brands, if you look at some of the biggest brands in the UK or the US, you will... Brands are boring, right? They, they are just... I mean, unless you're Coca-Cola-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... and you've had billions of pounds or pu- millions, billions pumped into your advertising, um, over 60 years, um, you can create a brand like that. But actually most brands will have some kind of a personality behind there. So, you know, one of the best brands, I guess, is, like Richard Branson, Virgin. We all know what Richard Branson stands for, and he's got an identity. People are interested in people, they're not actually interested in brands. And when you have a technology company, they can be quite dry. So what makes a technology company interesting is their CEO or their CMO, particularly if they're a real character and they're a personality behind that, and they can talk in a really competent, intelligent way. So yes, absolutely. It actually sits at the, at the absolute core of communications and PR, that personality profiling.
Speaker 1: Does make me think actually in terms of brands with personalities. So you see a lot of personality in, um, B2C brands of course.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: I think there's too many fluffy monsters and, oh, let's put another fluffy monster for this and that and whatever else.
Speaker 2: Hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, but at the end of the day, B2C brands are fantastic at telling stories. They're great at building a, a brand tone of voice-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... uh, and the way that they communicate. Do you feel that B2B's changing at this point in time and, um, there are a number of B2B brands out there now starting to develop more of a, a brand personality rather than looking a little bit vanilla and looking like everybody else?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I think there are, I would agree with you. Uh, there is probably a bit more understanding around the need for that. I mean, I've done B2B for 20 years. It's always been my passion. I hate B2C with a, with i- with an equal amount of passion actually. Um, it's definitely Different. I wouldn't say it's harder to b- do B2B communications, and it needs to be done more thoughtfully certainly in terms of things like profiling for your CEO. It's, it's such a crowded marketplace. I think one of the big challenges with tech B2B is that you, you may have eight companies that essentially all do more or less the same thing, and th- y- you know, it's nuanced differences, and those nuanced differences are very hard t- to, to communicate really. They really are. Until you get really under the hood and start working with a company, often you won't actually understand that. So I, I think companies are becoming more aware of that, and I would say American companies have always been really good at this. So if any businesses ever stand out, it's Americans. So what we've had before is US businesses that have come over to the UK and Europe from the US, and they've hit the, hit the button on PR and comms in the UK and Europe-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... before they even land on the ground. So what they do is, is they do all their PR first so they get their visibility and their awareness up, and then they'll stick a salesperson on the ground, and then the salesperson can then go out to a warmedup market. So that salesperson is profiled.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So they're like, "Oh, hi Steven. Yeah, of course I know you. Yes, I've seen you. Where did I see you?" And th- they can't ... They won't necessarily know where they've seen them, but certainly there's the recognition there, so it's a lot easier. And I think companies are I think probably AI is helping them to un- That's one good thing, is that you can get a marketing plan from AI, but that is one of the things it will be telling you. You know, it will be leaning in and pushing very hard that kind of profiling. And of course something we were talking about earlier is generative engine optimization, you know, being surfaced by the LLMs. I think companies are... It's still early stages, but I think they're, they're starting to realize really how important that is. And again personal profiling, PR coverage runs... It's a seam that runs straight through, um, the generative engine optimization area.
Speaker 1: Let's come back to the cheer- GEO in a moment.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: I really love the idea of, um, cultural differences, nuances an- and so on. Um, and I think in, in the UK we've always been told it's a bit crass to shout about yourself or a bit worried that you're seen as a showoff-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: ... I guess. Uh, whereas American culture's very different.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Speaker 1: You celebrate wins.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: You shout about it from the highest mountain.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Um, and you wanna tell the world ab- about yourself, your business-
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: ... and various other things.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Um, so are you seeing the US culture is, is kinda transforming UK European culture at all?
Speaker 2: Well, I think I went to Possible in April, and it was open for business and th- it was a marked difference. And what I love about Americans, if we're talking culture with Americans, is they are so... They tend to be more open. They're more open to being sold to. You could see people literally pitching to one another. That's very acknowledged. You know, it's very, uh, welcomed, and they're very... They tend to be much more positive and upbeat and engaged with startups. They want you to succeed. I absolutely love that about them. Uh, when you talk about the Brits, I agree there is a little bit of an introversion there. You know, we all get a little bit embarrassed about kind of selling to somebody. Um, but it's not selling, and this is again a fundamental point which, you know, I talk to clients about, I talk to my teams about. Um, selling is... I, I personally don't like selling. I do like relationship building though, and what you've got to get good at is you've got to get good at asking great questions, and you've got to get good at active listening, and those are the two skills you need to sell. And essentially what you're doing is is you're building trust and you're building up a relationship. You know, if you think you're gonna just walk in to, uh, meet somebody for the first time and they're gonna buy off you, you know, you're gonna be the worst salesperson in the world. But if you build up their trusts and you, you give them something, you give them a little bit of a tr- you know, a trial. Y- you... I mean, you know how it works. It, it's a very, very different conversation. So I kindly... I hate the word sales 'cause it's not.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's just building up that, that longer term relationship you're gonna have with somebody. So how do you... Stepping back from that, how would you, how would you start a relationship in your personal life? You know, how would you set up a new friendship or... It's that consistency over time when you're giving people somebody, uh, something, and they can tell if you're trying to sel- sell to them. You know, so for me n- many of... You know, the majority of my clients are my, are friends. I've got a good deep relationship with them, and even after we stop, stop working with them we'll be doing favors for them and helping them for years because you want to be able to do that, and you want to help them out with their businesses. I want their businesses to succeed, and that's a real point of difference, and that's why we succeed as a business. You know, we're not just doing it because we can invoice them. We're doing it because we want their businesses to succeed because ultimately that helps all of us to pay our mortgage at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. I mean, we're, w- we're born with two ears and one mouth, right?
Speaker 2: Totally.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day we're, we're creatures that should listen more.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and we just don't. You know, we get s- we get talked to all the time. People, if you go into a conversation... I mean, I was, I was talking to somebody about this yesterday. The minute I can see somebody stops listening, I actually stop talking. So I, I, I don't feel the need to tell them anything else because I can tell they're not actually actively listening. I find it the biggest turnoff ever. So I just literally think I'm not gonna give you anything about myself now, and I think probably 80% of people are actually like that. So if you do actively listen and you do take it onboard and you do remember things about that person the next time you see them, not just in a kinda sales way, oh, I've read my notes from last time, I'm just gonna ask you something just because I know I've got to, it's not authentic. But authentic people really stand out. There's a, a lady called Shirley Smith, I'm gonna give her a shout-out on here. She's, she is probably the most popular person in the whole industry, the most genuine person you will ever meet, will do favors for you, but you can see it comes from a really authentic place. She is the most authentic, genuine person in this industry, and everybody loves her. She is the best salesperson because she's just herself, and she, she's not, she's not after how much revenue can you give me. She wants to actually genuinely help you, and that comes across-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... in such a genuine way, and she's hugely successful as a result.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, I t- I totally agree with that. Yeah. It's making me think of this idea around three Rs, which is relationships, reputation-
Speaker 2: Yep
Speaker 1: ... uh, and then revenue that comes out of the back of that.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1: Uh, and you're obviously a part of th- many aspects of, of the activities that would fall under the three Rs.
Speaker 2: Indeed, yeah. I mean, ours is r- uh, rigor, relationships, remarkable thinking, is actually-
Speaker 1: Right
Speaker 2: ... the three Rs that we use at GingerMay. So yes, yeah, and that, that leads to revenue in the end, but you can't start with revenue in mind. And I know that sounds, that sounds crazy to s-... O- obviously, that's your end goal, but again, it's the authenticity. If people think that you're just gonna be looking to take their money at the end of the day, then why would they work with you? You know, what are, what are we working with them for? We're working with them to improve their business, to improve their trust, to get more clients, um, you know, to build a narrative, to build their reputation, and they can ... And they need to be able to see that we'll be able to deliver that. And then at the end of the day, if you're doing that well, then obviously you'll get the business. Um, it's, it's obvious.
Speaker 1: Coming back to something you mentioned earlier, um, GEO.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: So clients are coming to you now, um, they're talking to you about optimizing for AI engines.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: What do those conversations look like?
Speaker 2: Tell me about GEO.
Speaker 1: I wonder if, I wonder if-
Speaker 2: They don't know anything about it
Speaker 1: ... where, where are people are at in terms of maturity, the help that you can provide-
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah
Speaker 1: ... the expertise-
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: ... the knowledge that they can unlock from you.
Speaker 2: Well, they don't know anything about it, so they literally tell me about GEO, "What can we do? What do we need to know?" My CEO has seen something about GEO, or he's seen a post from us, and he doesn't know what he needs to do, um, or she needs to do. What do we need to start thinking about? And the thing about GEO is it's very timely, so if you had an article or a piece published two years ago, it's really not gonna make it in. So it... There is similarities to SEO, um, then they're not, obviously they're not exactly the same, and things are evolving, you know, incredibly fast, but PR sits very heavily within that, uh, GEO remit. So basically publications with a, a high ranking, a high, a high digital footprint, um, they will, they will be rated more highly. And interestingly, we talked about things like Reddit as well, so you've got these kind of other nuanced areas coming in. So somebody asked me actually this morning and said, "Where do we put our budget? Do we put our budget within Reddit or kind of other areas?" And the, the challenge is, is that Reddit is so nuanced and there's so many different threads to it, so all of us have a limited time. What can you do within the limited time and budget you've got? And really you need to be doing PR, you definitely need to do for GEO. It's absolutely imperative getting your own content on your site and your blogs up to date, putting a Q&A behind it. So there's a few things you can put behind your website that will help with GEO, like a Q&A, like a site map, that will really help as well. Um, writing blog articles like, um, Why We Are The Best DSP, if you're a DSP, will really help it pick up because that is gonna be the, the, the prompt that gets put into the search engine. But of course, like with everything, there's no one silver bullet. You need to be doing 200 different things to make it work. But PR is a huge, huge chunk of that, that's why it's so exciting. And all the work we've done for years, I say about the time thing, we've got clients that are still being found for Wall Street Journal articles because they're so highly ranked and so important in terms of their popularity and, you know, the, the number of visitors they have. They're flagged up years afterwards on, on, uh, on search.
Speaker 1: Which is good and also is a bad thing as well because the content could be out of date.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, if somebody is searching for information around a business now-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: .... um, they are potentially hitting a, a conflicting signal. Uh, and there's a lot of noise that's created as well-
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 1: ... because the LLMs are obviously full of the past.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Or if it's a bad article, i.e. you've, you've actually, you know, s- people have cocked up at work or done something and it's a, it's a negative piece. And that would be the same as, the same advice I would give on that is the same as we used to say for SEO, which is you need to basically drown it out, so you need to put other things in place so that those kind of articles aren't actually surfacing you up for the wrong reasons. So, um, then you need to be really active with your PR marketing to make sure that all of your coverage is in the right direction with the right messaging.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So on the client side, are the clients now more interested in the ecosystem that they exist within and embracing it more?
Speaker 2: Because of GEO, you mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, I think people are very early stage within this. I can't emphasize that enough.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: And, and it's... There are some tools out there already that are starting to come up that are helping to measure GEO. I think clients are just so behind at the moment because they're struggling with, you know, their product, their sales, and they're like, "Oh my God, I've now got to deal with large language models. How do I even start?" So it's the marketing teams and the CMOs that are being given obviously the job of finding out best practice within this, and we are, you know, we are trying to keep up to date. It's changed al- You know, we, we had a task force internally working on this for the last year. It's changed even from six months ago. So we're just keeping clients updated. We are, um, giving them all the best practice. You know, they would need a... You would need literally to have a separate program like you do with SEO to really hit GEO. But I think they're beginning to understand as more, as, as LLM searches are increasing, that's the challenge 'cause obviously they, even at the beginning of the year, they were still low. As we're seeing more and more and more search through LLMs, it's gonna have to be a core part of the, the marketing budget to make sure that you're actually able to be surfaced using an LM- LLM search.
Speaker 1: Wow. I mean, uh, this also makes me think that there's communication and understanding issues within businesses.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1: So for instance, I'm on a board, which it's unlikely that the CMO will be on the board, um, so CEO, CFO, COO, et cetera, and a burning question being w- you know, what, what's happening, you know? We're losing all this traffic.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What's going on here?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: How are we gonna fix it?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So y- w- we're a transactional business, as an example
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah
Speaker 1: If this continues-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... we're not gonna be a business.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Is there a, a challenge for the, the CMO, um, to better communicate effectively these marketing challenges, these issues, these transitions that we're going through?
Speaker 2: At the marketing, at the board level?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I- yes. And it's, it's like I say, it's, it's that educational piece is going on at the moment. I think for companies that haven't updated their website, so it obviously LLMs are, um, finding articles, they're finding your website, you need to have all of your ducks in a row. Your housekeeping needs to have been completely done. Um, and then the communications at the board level is the same for, I think, any marketing person. It... I think there is a, a much more of a thrust now towards board understanding how important marketing is within the sales cycle and the sales process. Again, Americans do this absolutely brilliantly. So I would say if anybody's ahead at the moment, we've got... Actually, we've got an, an agency client who is ahead on this. They are all over this, uh, because they're obviously advising their clients, and then the US clients are really, really over this and investing in it already. So you can see that that is coming down from board level. So I think probably the CEOs are the ones that are saying, "Christ, we need to, we need to get up to speed as quickly as possible with this." But, you know, all of us, I think anybody that's running businesses, you know, I'm- I run a business. There's never been so much change. It's, I mean, genuinely, it's, in the last 16 years since I've been running a business, I have never, even with COVID, never seen so much change. You've got things coming out at you from all angles, and it's like, which one do we hit first? Um, it's just trying to keep on top of the knowledge and the understanding. So it's like LLMs, you know. We're all trying to kind of learn and understand what's going on there. There's still quite a lot of bullshit that's going on. There's still overstatements about how much it can actually do within your business.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: You know, as I said, we had this task force that was actually working within our business. Within two months, it's like, oh, it can only do that and that, not all of this other stuff that's been promised. So the key thing for businesses is they just need to learn and keep on top of it. I'm doing LinkedIn courses. I'm just, I'm learning wherever I can. I'm experimenting. You know, you are too.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: I experiment with, in my spare time. I was working on Saturday on one of the, o- on ChatGPT and Perplexity, just playing around with it just to see how it works. So I guess that's a bit frustrating that you're having to use your spare time to train yourself up, but people that don't are gonna be left behind. And CEOs, they, they need to know, and they need to understand it.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: They all need to be playing around with this.
Speaker 1: But that's, that's the art of staying curious, isn't it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day.
Speaker 2: And you should want to.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Who wants, who wants to be, like, back in the Dark Ages?
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I love this stuff. It's so exciting to play around with and also go, yeah, I, I'm reading all this stuff and, mm, no, I don't see it's doing that actually. Not yet, and it will, but now I can see how it's sitting. But next month something else will have changed, and we need to keep up to scratch and, and learn from each other. So there's a lot of information sharing in our business. We've got a Slack channel so we can share what we're actually doing, so we can share best practice 'cause I think a lot of this is you don't know what you don't know-
Speaker 1: Hmm
Speaker 2: ... yet. You know? So learning, reading, talking to other people on what they're doing in their businesses is really important.
Speaker 1: Hmm. It's making me think about CEOs again. So should they be reframed slightly and start becoming chief storytellers?
Speaker 2: It's this, it's the job of every CEO to be a storyteller.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: You are ... If you're leading from the front, which every good CEO should, and I le- I lead f- I'm, you know, m- my s- my team actually say I'm f- I, I lead from the front all the time. Um, I am expected to know what's going on when people ask me. I n- I do need to have an answer t- for most things, and storytelling is part of that. You're telling a story to your team, and you're telling a story to your clients and the industry as well.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 2: And if you're not confident in doing that, and not all, not CEOs are. You know, some CEOs are more naturally adept at, uh, selling. You know, you see those gregarious kind of outgoing CEOs that are very good at ... Some of them are really introverted and just don't enjoy that area. Doesn't stop you from being a storyteller. You just get good people in, obviously, to help you do that. You should never say, "I don't wanna tell a story" because the problem is if you don't tell a story about yourself, somebody else will, or other people will take over your story, and you just become unheard. So it is really important to get yourself out there and to get that perspective because the storytelling starts from the minute you set up a business. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't start five years in because people are gonna have a perception about you, and they're gonna ... It's gonna take a long time to break that perception, so start it from the word go. Start evenly. If you just get a freelance marketing person in, get them to kind of help you build that. And it's not about live interviews. It's not about going on TV or radio, which a lot of people are terrified with. They're like, "God, you know, I can't get on the BBC and do a live broadcast". I did it once. It was the most terrifying moment of my life, being broadcast to five million people. You know, for somebody that's busy that isn't as confident, they can do written content. And that's great because for introverted people, they can go through it with a fine-tooth comb and check that all the messaging is in there so that they can push it out with absolute confidence and say, "Yep, that's absolutely got my stamp on it." But that is so much better than doing absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you, you mustn't sit on your laurels and not do anything. You must be pushing out content about yourself 'cause your competitors will if you don't.
Speaker 1: That's fantastic. Um, I'm gonna start bringing things to a close. I think you've been an exemplar of brilliant storytelling today, and that's come through, and the passion that you have as well is, is just tremendous.
Speaker 2: Thanks, John.
Speaker 1: Always kind of finish the show in the same way.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: So for a younger individual looking to perhaps enter the world of marketing, PR, advertising-
Speaker 2: Yup
Speaker 1: ... what piece of advice would you provide to them?
Speaker 2: I actually got published in a HR, uh, magazine two weeks ago giving some advice on this 'Cause I was in a really bad grumpy mood, and I saw the opportunity come through, and I just, just, uh, messaged the journalist and grumbled, and she printed it. And, um, if it's somebody literally straight out school or university, my piece of advice is don't bloody use AI to write your cover note of your CV, and it's really serious. We put a, we put a job advert out, um, 2,000 applicants, and as we were checking it through, so we do human check. I was l- like, "God, this is a good cover letter." And then the second one came in, and I was like, "Wow, that's quite similar to the first。" And then the third one, I was like, "Yeah, this has kind of got the same themes as the first and second." And then after the fifth and the sixth, you're like, "Oh. Oh, right. Okay, right. Understood. You've all used AI," so they all went in the bin regardless of whether they had a double first at, at Cambridge and Oxford. They just went straight in the bin. So if we can see anybody has used AI on a cover letter, th- you need to have personality, and you need to have storytelling. We want to know who you are and why we should give you a chance to come into the business. So do not use it, first and foremost. I'd rather have a shorter cover note that's been human-written because then we can see what you're like. You know, you can run it through a spellchecker by all means, but we wanna see what you actually do. And the second thing is just work experience. Do whatever you can. Just, just get in there somewhere and just do it. And, you know, we don't... We can see the, the kids, they leave uni or they leave school, and then they start thinking about it, but give up your Easter holidays. I know it's annoying and you wanna go out with your mates, but give up a week because, again, when we're looking at CVs, we're looking to see the ones that have actually made the effort. What we want is we want can-do people that have self effort, and that's the best way of seeing self effort. I've written my own cover note, and I've actually made the effort to show you that I want to go into your organization 'cause I've given up my time by getting worse placements, and they get in the pile for interview.
Speaker 1: Brilliant. That's brought us back to the start of the conversation where we talked about the idea of sameism. I love it.
Speaker 2: 100%. It's everywhere.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today. You've been absolutely incredible on the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks, John. That was a really good, fun conversation. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you.