Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: So, I'm really excited to welcome to this edition of the Business Marketing recorded live here at the beautiful Depth Garden in the deepest, darkest part of Cannes Lions 2026. Uh, Marcus Startzel, who is the, the CEO of, uh, GumGum. Uh, Marcus, welcome.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Welcome. Great to be-
Speaker 1: Uh, uh-
Speaker 2: Great to be here.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: In the deepest, darkest space in Cannes Lions.
Speaker 1: It's just what you need-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... on a, on a Wednesday afternoon. Um, so look, um, first of all, why don't you kind of just give me the lowdown on, um, GumGum which, for me, uh, is the- the greatest name for a company I've ever, ever, ever heard.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, probably a topic for another podcast, but the, uh, the origin story of the name is one that's highly debated, and no one really knows the, the truth. Uh, except probably the f- a couple of the founders of the company. Uh, which is b- uh, almost 20 years ago now, or a couple decades ago. Uh, so GumGum, we are, uh, an advertising technology company, and, you know, at the, the core of the heritage of the company was, uh, com- computer vision driven, AI driven, um-
Speaker 1: Yes
Speaker 2: ... contextual understanding of the moment of an, an ad is served. And I think over the years have just developed an amazing amount of, uh, technology and, and business with our customers where, um, you know, we now think of ourselves as the mindset company. Where we are really on a mission to understand mindset, uh, which I'm sure we'll get into today, and, uh, how that brands can leverage that knowledge in a world where, uh, maybe digital advertising alwa- always hasn't been working on behalf of them. So it's a amazing company, global, uh, great, amazing team.
Speaker 1: A- and how long, uh, gimme a sense of how long you've been there. You're rec- you're kind of it's a fairly recent sort of, uh, appointment? Uh-
Speaker 2: Yes. I, uh, I was appointed just before Cannes of last year, and so I'm coming up on one year at the end of this month. So, uh, not that long at all, but, uh, also feels like a long time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, things are moving so fast at the moment. Um, I would love to kinda just get a kind of perspective and maybe some reflections on, you know, probably what feels like an eon, but it's actually just coming up to 12 months.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, well, look, I think it's a really interesting time for our industry. Uh, you know, in an industry that's been talking about artificial intelligence now for, like I said, the better part of 20 years, uh, really, uh, talking about machine learning and algorithmic-based bidding and things like that. Um, you know, artificial intelligence is obviously a massive conversation today. It's a maf- massive conversation in advertising and, and in the, in the world. And so I think, um, it really creates a very interesting opportunity for a company like GumGum, and I think the, um ... We've just touched the surface of what's actually possible with artificial intelligence. Uh, you know, you certainly see a lot of, uh, creative aspects, uh, you know, uh, streamlining processes, you know, certainly workflows. But I do think there's really a, a, an amazing opportunity to really use artificial intelligence to find consumers in the right moment when they're both receptive, yeah, and w- to a relevant ad.
Speaker 1: Definitely, it's really interesting this whole kind of, you know, context- contextual kind of, um, paradigm that we're sort of now kind of going through. You know, sort of, it's almost like, I mean, there's a lot of talk about sort of attention becoming kind of, you know, the sort of the new kind of hard currency as it were. Kind of unpack that for me a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, well, s- s- I think for years and years, uh, brands want to reach an audience, uh, and engage consumers, and advertising is supposed to be, you know, think of the traditional, you know, purchase funnel. You know, create awareness and affinity all the way down through consideration and, uh, purchase intent, and the ultimate, you know, uh-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... the, the sale at the end of the day. And I think that, um, a lot has been lost in, in digital advertising 'cause we ... incredible tools that have been, uh, created to be able to, uh, think of, you know, 20 years ago when you couldn't track when someone purchased something off of an ad. And now systems, technologies, uh, attribution companies-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... are built around that, and I think a lot of investment, and rightly so, has gone to, how do we create those, uh, actions on behalf of brands? And I think, uh, also just by the nature of the ecosystem, uh, there's a, a, uh, a bi- bit of a gamesmanship around, how do I work on behalf of the brand and ensure that my work gets the credit for the conversion, uh, as well? And so I think the, the ... where attention can come in is, you really wanna make sure with your advertising that you're serving it to someone who's paying attention, but also is receptive to the ad. And so-
Speaker 1: Right
Speaker 2: ... I do think that's, uh, a little bit about context. It's a little bit about an understanding of a person, the moment. Is it a big screen? Is it a small screen? What time of day is it? Is it raining outside? There's so many little c contextual clues all around that, um, it's, it's, it's important to understand someone is actually paying attention and the ad is hitting in the right moment.
Speaker 1: Are we kind of reaching a kind of a now moment for, for kind of this as a, as a kind of con- 'Cause it's been, it's been around, and as you said, you know, it's been talked about as in some ways kind of a, an abstract, kind of philosophical, kind of maybe in some cases holy grail kind of type scenario. But it does feel like kind of it- it's a now thing. Like-
Speaker 2: Yeah, I-
Speaker 1: ... it's starting to become real. You know, like tangible and so forth. Do you-
Speaker 2: I agree with that. Um, so we really, uh, w- the company before I joined invested and built, uh, something called the Mindset Graph which allows our customers to really understand what's going on inside the ads, where is the aura of the ads working, who's responding, who's paying attention- How are they being mentioned compared to their competitors? And so it's a really, uh, amazing tool. And what's really happened since the, you know, the creation of that was- was just like the expansion of ChatGPT, the progression of large language models. And now, uh, like you said, the industry's been talking about right person, right ad, right time for a very long time. Um, you know, 20 years ago when I was selling performance-based advertising, that's-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... what I was saying. And now you've got what I believe is a real opportunity to transform the way technology is impacting ads in the digital space, and you can really understand more about a person. Uh, a, a person today is a collection in many ways of the audiences that they belong to online as measured by platforms and algorithms, and, uh, you know, good, uh, a, a friend of mine, uh, who is a CEO of an agency always says that the algorithms are flattening the brands, and it takes more and more, um, you know, work for a brand to pop. And so that's really where I think mindset comes in. Um, I'm a lot of different things. I'm a father, I'm a CEO-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... I'm a classic car restorer. I'm not in that mindset 24 hours a day, and that I think is the, the big opportunity here, and I do think it is a now opportunity as so much investment's coming in, but also I really love working for growth businesses. I think it's a growth opportunity for, for GumGum because we are leading in the mindset, uh, race, and this is a great opportunity.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's so funny. You, you kind of just rattled off just a small number of things that you are, right? But it's- you made me kinda think it's, uh, it's almost like a kind of a multi-mindset graph rather than a mindset graph. Or, I mean, maybe that's what the definition of mindset is. But I think, and, and for us to be able to kind of almost reach the right kind of one of those mindsets at that particular moment is kind of where we're getting to.
Speaker 2: That's right. I think it's a combination of two R words. Uh, relevancy and receptivity. And w- way I like to think about it is-
Speaker 1: Yes
Speaker 2: ... again, I'm a member of an audience 24 hours a day-
Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, yeah
Speaker 2: ... in some digital platform, but I'm, uh, interested in different things. I'm engaged in different things in 7:00 AM than I am at 7:00 PM. I'm gonna respond to different ads. I'm gonna be engaged with different products. Maybe I'm researching, maybe I'm sitting back and relaxing, and I think understanding that given the signals that are available in context, the environment, and the user signals that-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: … uh, exist, you have the opportunity to-- We have the opportunity to do better-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: .. and really engage.
Speaker 1: I mean, so much efficiency, so much more effectiveness, right? I mean, so give me a sense of kind of the impact you're having kind of across the journey. Like, you know, g- bring it to life for me a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think there's a n- a number of ways. So first, you mentioned attention earlier. Uh, the company acquired, uh, Playground XYZ, uh, an attention company, attention measurement company, and have u- ultimately in- in- uh, integrated that technology into the platform. And so now every ad opportunity we have, we already are predicting whether or not someone is gonna pay attention to the ad. Now think about that for a second. If you're a brand for an agency and you're placing advertising, the ability to know that someone's gonna pay attention to it or not is seems simple, but it's not, it's not trivial. So I think just getting someone to pay attention to the ad. And then, of course, we're seeing a huge, a3 or 4X increase in relevancy around brand impact. We can actually measure the attention required to drive that lift in brand impact. And then, of course, customers love brand impact. They love engagement, but they want outcomes. And so I think the ultimate we need to be able to feed those vector embeddings that we've got to be able to get smarter and smarter and smarter, so that when we get a brief or we get a customer saying, "Here's what we're trying to accomplish with our campaign, and here's who we think our target is," we can find those people in the moments that matter.
Speaker 1: I love it. Now, so you- you've been quite kind of public, kind of on the record about sort of like sharing your kind of playbook somewhat, right? You know, you, you said your pattern for growth is to kind of understand the customer, build the right product and tech, then lead the go-to-market. Sort of why does that order kind of matter so much?
Speaker 2: Oh, well, um, first off, the journey ends with a customer who achieves their goals. And so if you believe, like I do, that we can transform advertising by the understanding of mindset, that's what you have to start with. You have to deploy data scientists, technology, and really think about, um, how do we best understand mindset. Once you understand mindset, then you can help advertise across all, again, all different channels. Like it's, uh, display is not the place where people think to spend their dollars, but that might be the place where the outcomes are. And so you take that understanding of mindset, you apply omnichannel, and then what you really get is you get those outcomes. And, and, and that's, that's wh- where it is at the end of the day. Um, we may have the smartest technology. We may have the best theoretical understanding of human mindset as it re- pertains to advertising. But if we can't deliver results for brands, there's really no reason for us to be in business.
Speaker 1: I love it. So that, let's lock that in. Then I suppose there's kind of a lens and, and a kind of application over the top of that which is you coming in-
Speaker 2: Sure
Speaker 1: ….how do you kind of work out, you know, where the real opportunities are? You know, product sales, you know, um, or is it something else, like?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, well, you know, it's interesting. Um, I spent some time at Amazon, uh, in my career, and if Amazon talks about anything, they talk about their obsession with the customer.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And I think y- I say that because you're gonna hear me say again, um, it starts with the customer. And so certainly when I joined, I talked to a lot of the team and understood the people and the products, but it really came from the customers. And, and I think, you know, what the- what I heard loud and clear from the customers was that we're a really well-liked company. Uh, great marks, fantastic NPS scores. Um, and that is not always easy to find.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2: And so that was just fantastic.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty good base.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: At least.
Speaker 2: And then, you know, from a product perspective, like I said, some great raw materials around the Mindset Graph and the, the contextual computer vision and the attention prediction. And so I really think my learning was, okay, we've got the, the m- the makings, we've got the pieces parts of what could be a really incredible go-to market. And then I think it just really came about, like, where are the gaps? Like, we, um... When I joined, we were very highly concentrated in display advertising. And in a very simple way, you take a look at the pie chart of where our revenue was coming in, the business we were doing, very high in display. If you put next to that where brands are spending money, display advertising is a small fraction of what we were doing. And so that provided a great opportunity. Like, it's not necessarily people or products or technology. It's just about focus and meeting customers, again, where they want to advertise. And, like, um, today with the, you know, the advent of streaming, all the different services, the fracturing of consumer attention, like, it becomes more important than ever to be omnichannel, and I think that's a place where we're seeing a lot of growth right now.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Again, it's just meeting the customers and the, and, and the end consumer where they are. And so I think that's, you know, uh, a journey when you join as a new CEO to sort of, like, really understand and listen.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you come in, everyone comes in with their own history, their own bias, their own point of view, and I think the, um, you know, it's, it's just probably a best practice to listen for a little bit-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... before you speak.
Speaker 1: Okay. That's great. So on the back of, I suppose, kind of like the fact that you've had all of this experience, and you've kind of, I suppose, worked through various kinda eras of, of kind of ad tech and how it's evolved. You know, here we are right now, June 26, like, what's changed most in how kind of buyers are making decisions?
Speaker 2: Geez. I would say probably what has changed most, uh, is the choice that both consumers and buyers have. Um, yeah, I was talking to someone earlier today.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh, not to date myself, but you know, when I was growing up, there were three places i- in, in the United States where you could buy advertising on TV: NBC, CBS, and ABC. And, like, they spent the time understanding what shows to produce, and basically chose what America would watch in primetime. And, um, today it's not like that anymore. Like, I look at here in Cannes, uh, I was at a major holding company, and they're doing, uh, creator, uh, speed dating with agency and brands to understand, like, how brands can, y- you know, insert themselves. One of our great customers, uh, e.l.f. Cosmetics, uh, was, uh, speaking on a panel about how they are specifically engaging in women's sports 'cause it's true to their brand, it's authentic, and those sorts of activations and those sorts of engagements, those sorts of places to spend advertising dollars, you know, they didn't exist. And so I think that's probably the biggest change that I've seen, uh, you know, as a consumer and, uh, as a person that's been in this space for a long time. I would also say a lot of things haven't changed. Um, you know, today if you look at, uh, the three big platforms in the space, Amazon, Meta, Google, you know, throw in Netflix, Snapchat. We all know OpenAI is right there on their way, and they're gonna be the next big platform. You know, when I started my career, it was AOL a- and Microsoft, and then Yahoo, and, and Google came around. So I think there's always these platforms that, through results driven to advertisers, create a, a gravity. And, you know, certainly those companies are still growing, you know, fantastically today. So, uh, it's just the different names in many ways, but a lotta times it's really about understanding, you know, advertising, the oldest, uh, tenet of advertising, is you gotta advertise where the people are, where the eyeballs are. And so I think that, um, some things have changed and some things have not.
Speaker 1: On that note, sort of how important is, and how do you build it, and perhaps more importantly, how do you retain trust in this sector?
Speaker 2: In the se-... Uh, I, I think it, it comes back to, you know, you've gotta choose, right? Um, you know, you've gotta choose, uh, you gotta choose the customer. Again, um, you're gonna hear me say this, and anyone listening to this podcast is like, "This guy's talking about his customers again," but it really is true. Like, if you're, um, working really hard to build optimization systems that drive conversions and create differentiation and brand lift, then you're doing the right thing for brands. If you're building optimizations to make sure that you could take credit for the conversions that were gonna, you know, happen already, um, then I think that's probably not the right way to build trust. And I think that's-- A, a- trust in a brand is, is everything. Like, there's, like I said, the choices for where people spend their money ... is near endless today. And so I think you've gotta be able to build with integrity, you've got to have trust. And, you know, certainly it starts with, you know, making sure you work at a company where hopefully all the folks at my company who are listening to this know that like they should be able to share, you know, their opinion and make sure we're headed in the right direction. We're super transparent, but I think that's the way you build trust. It starts from, uh, you know, s- you know, you gotta do the right thing. And if you do the right thing, the trust usually follows. Now look, I think there are sometimes when startups, um, get a, a, a growth path going and they catch lightning in a bottle and maybe they don't have all the ducks in a row, but, but they, you gotta get them in the row while you get there. Uh, GumGum is a super, uh, well run and professional company the day I got here. And so I think the, uh, the pitch continuing that and making sure we have customer's trust. And look, again, we have really high NPS scores, and basically an NPS question is like would you recommend GumGum to people that you know to work with? And you don't say yes, you don't answer 9 or 10 to that question if you don't trust GumGum.
Speaker 1: That's a, a great answer. And it sort of leads me quite nicely to the next kind of chapter I suppose which is wanting to kind of zero in on scale. You know, 'cause you, you know, you've, you've worked Amazon, you know, just a small company-
Speaker 2: Small company
Speaker 1: ... I guess. That, you know. Um, and you've also obviously GumGum exciting dynamic founder led kinda thing. What changes I suppose, you know, um, in, in how you kind of, you know, think, uh, about kinda growth, you know, in, in those two different sorta scenarios?
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's interesting. I, I think the, the day to day is different. I think the resources are different. But I don't think the mentality needs to be different based on, uh, customer size. Uh, sorry, based on cl- uh, company size because like there's some core principles, uh, around, you know, making it happen and make sure that the, um,... Sorry, it's rather noisy over there. Making sure that the, um, the, the co- the company's basically, uh, scrappy willing to, you know, not let something pass their desk and get the, you know, get the questions answered, not waiting for someone else to solve the problem. Like those are big company things and small company things. And it really is about having a team full of people who are focused on driving results for the customer. And so I think make it happen and having that space is, is important. The other, the other thing is like speed. Um, decision making is w- one of the most important things a manager, leader can do. And I think it's super important that decisions are made with speed. Now you won't always have all the right data, you won't always know the outcome of that decision, but I think y- you've gotta be able to acquire and make fast decisions. And, um, sometimes those are two-way doors where if it doesn't work out you can change your mind and then others are one-way door where you can't change your mind. And so, you know, m- my perspective on company psychore the larger company, um, you've got more people, more resources. Maybe the negative side of that is more people have to sign off on decisions before something can happen. But I think it really comes down to the, uh, you know, the mindset-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... of-
Speaker 1: To use that word again, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah. The mindset of the-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... of the, of the actor in the space.
Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: It's, it's agnostic on the size of the organization in many ways, right?
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: How interesting. And I guess just going back to the speed thing for a sec because, you know, you, there i-... My, my, my kind of question to you is sort of ho- 100% agree with that sort of needing to move quickly and so forth, and obviously that's been a big topic here in CAM as well, right? But, but there's al- ... Is there also a time when sometimes you just need to kind of wait and listen?
Speaker 2: Oh. Oh, for sure. For sure. Look, I think the... There are times when, uh, I spent time in the Navy on a nuclear submarine and there are definitely times and procedures where, you know, you wanna take your time and make sure those steps happen in the right order and that, uh, you know, no rash decisions are made and those, uh, those sorts of things. Um, and I think it's the, you know, the same in, in a company especially around, um, you know, people, you know, a- and, and, uh, and decisions around the organization. Um, you know, because the, um... We're all human. Every conversation we walk into we walk into with some sort of personal bias of like everything we've heard in our entire life to that moment creates how we f- think about a situation. And I think it's was really important and I hope again everyone who at GumGum's listening to this will have seen that, you know, it's really, you know, an opportunity to listen first and then learn before you go ahead and, uh, really make changes. Uh, because, uh, everybody's got great intentions and I think if everyone's got great attentions then you want to make sure you make those decisions well. Um, but also you need to be impatient about product,-
Speaker 1: Right
Speaker 2: ... you need to be impatient about sales and delivering for customers.
Speaker 1: So I, I, I was fascinated to find this out about you. Um, before Amazon you st- you started out as a nuclear submarine officer. I've never had a conversation with a nuclear submarine officer. I'm, I'm really excited about having one now. Um, what from that kind of first world still kind shows up in how you... What your philosophy in how you, you run things these days?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, for sure. One thing that has always stuck with me e- from my time in the Navy, uh, even, even back at the Naval Academy was there's this saying called ship shipmate self. Uh, they, they really imbue you with that mentality at, in Annapolis Uh, it really is very simple. Everything you do, every decision I make, every decision we all make should be what's best for the ship and then when we know that it's the best decision for the ship well then we need to consider our shipmates and certainly self is the last piece of it. And I think that that is a mentality that I like to-to take and has been super helpful for me, uh, in my leadership positions throughout my career because if everyone knows that's how I make decisions. I'm-- I try to be very transparent but um, ship mates don't always like when a decision doesn't go in their direction
Speaker 1: Right
Speaker 2: But at least I feel like in some cases they recognize that it is what I think is best for the ship. Uh, hopefully I have done a good job at collecting a lot of feedback but that definitely one area. The other thing that I really learned on the submarine is, um, uh, you know unlike the, you know, th-the Hollywood depiction of-of the navy which is a very hierarchical order driven deference. Don't get me wrong; the chain of command exists captain of a submarine calls the shots no ones ever questioning that. But um, it really was a very flat and inclusive organization where from the captain to the i- to the enlisted men felt the ability to share their opinion and we really ha-had an environment where your hundreds of feet below the ocean surrounded by water floating in tube with nuclear reactor in back Like you really count on everyone on that shift could do their part for safety proficiency tactical readiness so I think something learnt from good ideas definitely not just come form top its important to have open feed back loop Um, and you know I don’t know if thats in every part of military but that something this submarine community built on
Speaker 1: And when pressure is quite literally high I suppose What does kind calm leadership look practice?
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Speaker 1: Marcus Pleasure Having Marketing Podcast