Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to welcome to this edition of The Business of Marketing, recorded live here at Cannes Lions, uh, Matt Longley, who's the CEO of Mobsta. Matt, you've been parachuted into this conversation, and I really appreciate it. Um-
Speaker 2: No, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1: Uh, so I think this is kind of a conversation about sort of, you know, really what happens after the pitch, right? You've sort of... You've come up through sales, account management, leadership, customer success, to become s- um, sort of the CEO on your journey. And, you know, I think, I think really what I'm looking forward to is kinda talking about sort of how, I suppose in a sense, sort of why kinda customer success now sort sits kinda closer to the center. Um, so first of all, tell me a little bit about kind of Mobsta, you know, why you exist, um, and what problem do you solve?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we, um, we used to be a mobile, um, organization and just target people on mobile, um, using device IDs. That has changed a lot over the last five years. Um, and now it's about looking at as many data sets as possible, trying to smash them all together, and figure out where people are most likely to be. Um, and that's on any channel. Um, so, you know, digital, outdoor, audio, uh, connected TV, mobile display. Um, and yeah, just trying to work out where people are the most likely to be at any given time. Um, what we've learnt is that, uh, audiences are very, very different throughout the day. I'm, you know, a CEO at Cannes, uh, but this time tomorrow I will hopefully be home and getting ready to take my kids to cricket, and my thought processes and what brands I want to engage with change completely within 24 hours. Um, and you can't just put people into these buckets and hope that they stay there forever. So that's the sort of the thing we're trying to solve for, for brands.
Speaker 1: It's really exciting. I mean, it's sort of, you know, shifting kind of, you know, from departing to kind of multi, I, I don't know. How would you describe it, right? Is there a phrase or word that you use to go and describe, like, what you do in that sense?
Speaker 2: Um, we just talk about the perfect moment.
Speaker 1: The perfect moment.
Speaker 2: Because there isn't, there isn't, like, a, a person we can reach at anytime. It, it's just in the moment, uh, how can we make sure we are most likely to be seen by the person when they're, they're in their, the most perceptive moments, so.
Speaker 1: And, and of course, you know, y- like you were saying just as you arrived, um, you got woken up by your kids this morning whilst still thinking about a day ahead in Cannes. So it's not even a single moment, it's sort of a multi-moment at any-
Speaker 2: Multiple moments, and your head is working here, and here, and here. And, uh, and you can see, um, advertising any moment, and it can take you out of what you're thinking about. Um, and c- I mean, I'm looking at San Pellegrino now, and I have, you know, brand perception of San Pellegrino water, and I'm looking at an Apple phone. And it ... There's all these brands around, and they all sort of hit different emotions and different parts of you, and you just have to find the moment to tap into that to ma- make the, the, the recipient most likely to engage with you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's phenomenal. Um, and what a great evolution from where you started as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's been a, it's been a journey. I, I remember having a conversation about, uh, three and a half, four years ago with our head of product, and we used to work with a company called Amodo, who are a big American telco company. Uh, and I said, um, «What happens if we, if they pull out of our contract?» Uh, can I swear? I don't know what I-
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can swear. Definitely.
Speaker 2: And, and, uh, and our head of product said-
Speaker 1: Listen, I've interviewed Martin Richardson, okay?
Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah. Well, I won't be as bad as that, but yeah.
Speaker 1: That's the, that's the bar.
Speaker 2: That's the bar. Um, and he said, "If they pull out, we're fucked." And I was like, "That's not a good place to be." Uh, so we sat down and, and tried to figure out how we could change that. And over the last three and a half years, we've built our own activation team, our own tech platform that's evolved multiple times. Um, we've gone from 30 people to 60 plus, and revenue's grown three times in that time. And I, I think for us it became about, okay, what, what are the possibilities out there, uh, w- do we wanna be in five years, 10 years, uh, and let's just go and get it. And the thing I'm trying to instill at work is, uh, that there are no boundaries on what we can do. And I know it sounds cheesy, but we're, we're constantly pushing to sort of chase that horizon that you can never reach. There's no end point. It's just let's all get on the, on the-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... journey and just do good work together and, and see what happens.
Speaker 1: Well, it, it definitely feels like sort of almost what your, you know, y- your, your vision is, for me, very clear in as much as that you will, you will with great respect never achieve it, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Because, because it's impossible.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Which is the perfect vision in a sense.
Speaker 2: I think that's what I feel like in my life as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm, I'm never gonna get to the point where I go, oh, done.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I do have moments where I'm like, this is great. You know, this is... I, I love this. And those moments can be really odd, like lying in the snow when my kids are throwing snowballs at me, and I'm just like, »Just take this in,« because this is what it's all been for. Um, and you can't plan for those moments, they just happen. And I think that's what we're trying to do at work as well, is get people on this journey and stop worrying about targets quite so much. Like, yes, targets are important-
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 2: ... but that's not why we go to work. You know, it, it's a measure, but it's not why we go to work, so we should be looking a bit further ahead and, and seeing what we find on the way.
Speaker 1: That's incredibly en- enfranchising, you know, for anyone to work with an organisation-
Speaker 2: I hope so.
Speaker 1: ... when you have that sort of clear vision, because we all deal with so many moments in our lives-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... and, and those moments can sometimes be obstacles, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So when you have that vision, you, you work out that you can go under it, over it, through it, whatever, and you're, you're providing your team, I guess, you know, that exactly.
Speaker 2: E- ex- Exactly. And I... The way I describe it is like being in a, on a yacht, which is very apt for Cannes. But you get up in the morning and you're looking at the horizon, heading that direction. You're not going to get to the horizon, but you might see a nice little port that you weren't planning to stop in-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: .... and you go and, and you might see some dolphins on the way. You might go fishing, whatever. Uh, you don't plan for those necessarily, but they happen, and that port might have the best local restaurant you've ever been to, which could be a, a, like, a world defining moment for you. Um, and it, you don't know it's gonna happen, but you're just heading that way. Sunsets, you wake up and you do it all again. Um, I don't have a sort of second life as a sailor, uh -
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... but in my head I do.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Um, I wanna come back to that in a minute s- from a, with a Mobsta lens on it. But before I do that, I guess just like, you know, again following the thread of moments, why don't you just kinda talk me a little bit about sort of like what were the kind of key moments when you reflect back on your kind of I suppose journey today? You know, how... You know, y- here you are CEO of Mobsta. Let's rewind and then tell me about the moments that made that happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, so I had a bit of weird varied career. Um, I did a, a degree in archeology.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Uh, and didn't want to be an archaeologist. Uh, I went and joined, uh, customs at excise when I, uh, left university and became a customers officer for a few years searching people's bags for drugs and, and I mean, it was very bizarre, uh, bizarre job. Uh, we found lots of weird and wonderful things. Um, but after three and half years I couldn't do that forever. I couldn't do the shift work and if you found a package that was illegal it would be like a 30-hour shift. It was not, not for me. Um, so I applied for every job possible in the civil service at the time, and the one I got was in marketing. Um, and I joined the marketing team as a assistant marketing manager. Um, and I was there for 14 months and my boss there is the-- She was called Katie, was the best boss I've ever had. And on week two she was like, "What do you wanna do in your career? What do you wanna do next?" And I was like, "I've only just started here. What do you mean what do I wa- what do I wanna do next?" Uh, she's like, "Of all..." I mean, in the civil service it's a very sort of insular world.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: So she said, "Of all the civil service departments where do you wanna go?" And I said, "Well, I'm really interested in politics and I, one day I'd like to go and work at the Electoral Commission and, and work on voter registration and elections." She was like, "Okay well that's good, good plan to have for the future"
Speaker 3: Let's get this down.
Speaker 2: "Now let's get on with the job." Um, and about 10 months in a job came up at the Electoral Commission, uh, and I said, "Oh look I'm, I'm not qualified for this but think should go for it just for experience," and she was like, "Absolutely". Uh, her and a team ran two mock interviews for me to get me prepped for it which were still the hardest interviewers I've done in my life. I mean interviewing with people you know well is hard anyway 'cause you can't bullshit .
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Um, and you, you always extrapolate a little bit in an interview. You can't do that when you know someone. Uh, but they prepped me really well and I went into that job at the Electoral Commission, uh, and went into the interview and got it and I came out and told Katie and she hit her head on table and she went, "I knew you would. I'm really happy for you." And I was like, "I was worried about telling you. You've put so much into year." Uh..
Speaker 1: Unbelievable
Speaker 2: ... So two months later I left and that 14 months was so pivotal for me to just workout what leader I wanted to be in past. I'd had bad bosses before who try and hold onto you and keep you where you are, and that was the moment I just went, If I'm ever managing anyone I will always be the sort of person that wants help them move on if I, if we can't do it internally. Went to the Electoral Commission and I ended up running, uh, that marketing team after four years and loved it there. Um, prior to that I wanted to be politician, and within about a week of being there I didn't wanna be a politician.
Speaker 2: I saw how they were treated and whether rightly or wrongly it w- it wasn't for me. Um, but uh worked on some great campaigns there and then um after a while was starting to think about private sector and there's whole world media out there, you know outside public sector. Uh, but I was convinced that I wouldn't get a job in the private sector. Uh, you get a little brainwashed in the public sector that this is what you do and you know what transferrable skills do you have. Um, and we worked with agency at GroupM who doing the government buying at the time. Uh, I spoke their MD and complained about some client service and he said, "We, we really need someone to come and sort it", and I was like, "Whoa! That's not my problem." And he was like, "But could it be?" And I said, " Oh okay." Uh, so I joined M4C which was the governments agency.
Speaker 1: Yup
Speaker 2: Um, loved it. Uh, it was totally different world. Um, I think on my first day we went for pint at two o'clock on Monday and I think in 10 years in the civil service I'd had a pint once . So I didn't know what expect. Uh, but uh loved it there. There was pitch end of the year which GroupM lost. It went to Dentsu. I went over th-with the account to Dentsu, um, and three months into that job, um i ended up running the government team. Nine of us went over and we had build it up 80 people very quickly within six months. Uh, and that was big step for me again, um because suddenly wasn't running a team of five people, like having this nice culture of a-
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... a clique. Suddenly it had to be eighty people and my job went from being a manager to a, a leader um and having to set direction and I think that period while it was tough,, it, it al-ended rather badly after the Brexit campaign -
Speaker 1: Right
Speaker 2: ... 'Cause it ki-kinda ruined me. But ,um really tough job but taught me about setting a direction and trying to bring people along on a journey rater than just telling people what to do or e-you know expecting them to do certain things and hoping they do it. Um, after Brexit, uh, I moved within Dentsu. I went to Visium to run Camelot, um, for two years The National Lottery account. Again that was a very tough account to work on. Uh, and in that time thought I c- I don't really want to do client service anymore. I, I didn't deal very well with it. Um, high anxiety. Um learned lot myself and what I did and didn't want to do. I spoke to someone at Mobsta, spoke to founder uh eight ago and ended going seven years ago, uh as Client Director. Within a year I became Managing Director and we started growing and then became CEO two years ago and it's been the best job I've ever had. I absolutely love building this team. Um, it's all been built on idea of if we can promote you here we will help you elsewhere. Um, and genuinely happy when people ... leave to go on to another job. And it feels a bit weird to say on week one, "When you're ready to move on, I'll help you get there." But I think it's really, really important, and I just say to everyone on the team, "Look, w- the time you're here," um, "we want you to do the best work of your careers."
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: My job basically is to make sure that they have all the tools and-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... no barriers-
Speaker 1: Get out the way
Speaker 2: .... to allow them to do. It's basically get out the way, yeah. And, uh, and if there are barriers then just do everything I can to remove them so that they can do the best work of their careers. And I think, uh, that's, that's been a journey. It's been all over the place, all varied, but I've loved every minute of it. And while there have been tough bits, I wouldn't change any of it. It's all made me who I am now, and, um, at the age of 43 I'm discovering all sorts of stuff about myself, and, uh, it's, yeah, it's, it's been an interesting journey.
Speaker 1: Wha- what a brilliantly articulate-
Speaker 2: Sorry, it's a bit long.
Speaker 1: No way. It's like, it's great. You've just revealed loads, I hope for those listening, um, about you and progression and also the business and, and your leadership style, which again, I think is really, really interesting. So, you know, here we are in Cannes, and not making too much of it 'cause I don't wanna kind of create some sort of Cannes FOMO or whatever, but, um, how important is it for you to be here? And, you know, what, and why are you here and what are you doing here?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, so at Mobsta for the last s- seven or eight years, we used to come, a few of us, in the morning you say goodbye to everyone, you go and do your own thing, take off with lunch, go for meetings, come back in the evening. If ... How was your day? And last year we decided to have our own spot in a restaurant. Um, we're on the Gazegnaire Beach, just around the corner. It's a bit of a walk, but when you get there, it's on a nice rooftop. It's very cool. But it means we can have 20 people for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for two days. Um, and last year was the first year we tried that. This year we've done it at, at, at the same thing again. Uh, our head of marketing has done an amazing job, uh, you know, organizing things like this and, uh, working with our PR agency, Ginger May, who have just got us a lot more exposure, and the whole thing feels so much more professional. When I compare my first Cannes in 2019 to this, it feels entirely different. Um, and it's really nice having people come and visit us, get to meet some of the team just for a couple of hours at a time. There's no pressure. Um, we have some panels and some round tables and some interviews, but the lunches and dinners are just pretty chilled, and it's just a nice way to, you know, finish your morning with a nice lunch and just reset for the next rest of the day, or just finish the day. Uh, and it's not crazy or wild or anything. Uh, but the conversations this year have been so varied. I think one of.. My first panel this week was, uh, talking about neurodiversity, um, we've been talking about data ethics and, and AI ethics, um, and then talking about my career today. Every conversation's slightly different, but I've loved the idea of possibility in al- in most of those conversations. There isn't a, "What is happening this time next year? What are we gonna do about it?" It's, "What does the, the future look like? How can we be the best versions of ourselves? What's, where do humans fit into this AI world? Where does AI fit into the human world?" And I just love conversations like that 'cause there isn't an endpoint. It just fires my brain off in all sorts of different directions. And yeah, I love having conversations where you can talk about, uh, the bad performance of the England team in the football, but then that leads somehow to work and then-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... it's not a sales thing. I don't want to be sitting here selling Mobsta or selling myself. That sounds bad. Uh , downtown on the Croissette, you know. Uh, bit of extra money. But, uh, I, I, I just like the idea of possibility in conversations and, uh, I always thought it was slightly odd that you have conversations here, and then you finish with them. Let's pick this back up in London. Why does it need to be in C- Cannes to have that first conversation? But we worked with a guy called Rob Webster at Tal, and he said last year, actually, there is no other event in the world where for three or four days, this many people in the industry are within a square mile of each other, and you can meet eight people in a day, go to lunches and dinners, meet another 30 people, and have so many short, sharp conversations that fire off all sorts of ideas. If you try to do that in London, it would take months, and I think that's-
Speaker 1: Yup
Speaker 2: ... the real benefit of Cannes, is your access to, to conversations possibilities that you wouldn't necessarily have without having to organize an hour-long meeting three weeks in advance, it get pushed back. You know. So yeah, everyone just seems very open and, and willing to get those, those meetings in and, and, and have a chat and a coffee, and it's nice.
Speaker 1: So look, that's great, and I, I agree with you and it's, uh, you know, this year feels even, even better, as it were. There just seems to be a bit of a, a more of a kind of buzz in terms of where we are. You know, we've had some really tough times, and it's not easy anywhere, right? But it definitely feels like this is a, a very special moment in-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... i- in the world in some ways, for good and bad and so forth, right? There's, you know, we could go on about that. But what I'm really interested in probably just talking more about now is, is, is sort of like, to your point around the conversations, tell me about like the conversations that you're having with your customers, uh, and, and, and, and, you know, and what and, and, and, and what are you doing about those conversations from a Mobsta perspective?
Speaker 2: So the thing I've learned this week, and our clients might, might disagree with this, but I don't think they've realized that-- I don't think a lot of media agencies have really realised that they are true consultants for their, their brands, and they're not a media agency at all. Um, and that talk about the extent to which they have conversations, not just with the brand teams and the marketing teams, but the, the finance teams and c- you know, or the pr- procurement teams and their retail teams and their customer success teams. Their job now is far more of a KPMG McKinsey-style job. Um, and I think from our point of view If business intelligence isn't a bigger revenue driver for us in five years than advertising, then we've done the wrong thing. Because media buying will always be there and it serves the purpose. It's gonna be automated, and a lot of it's gonna be automated. It's about what we can do as humans with AI sort of shoring us up to deliver business intelligence to brands that, that goes way beyond advertising. Um, and we recently got asked by a, a retailer if we could match what their research partner's been supplying for their CEO every week for the last five years. And when I saw the report, it was like three charts-
Speaker 1: This is gonna be-
Speaker 2: And I was like, "I, I... Yeah, we can match that." And it took about 90 minutes to go into our system and pull up a report that had 40 different data points that you could click into and work out whether people have come from this store to this store in a week, what the average basket size was, what the footfall was, what people's, uh, you know, moods were. Uh, there's all sorts of ways you can look into it. Um, but that on its own isn't very useful.
Speaker 1: It's just data, isn't it?
Speaker 2: It's, it's the conversations that come off the back of that. So, it was the first time we've ever done anything like that. Probably, we undercharged for it. But actually, I d- I would have paid them to take that data because I think what we'll find is that, that, those reports form the basis of the briefs that we get in three months' time. So, if we can start having those conversations now, we can almost predict what we're gonna be asked to do in three months. A-and then we become even more valuable to the clients, even more valuable for the, for the brands. Um, so it's th- that's the conversation this week really is. It's not even about advertising, it's about how the intelligence that we can derive from all the different datasets, not on their own, but combined together, um, how can we predict human behavior? And again, not in an individual basis, but how can we predict where people are likely to be at a certain time, and what mood they're likely to be in, and how perceptive they're gonna be. Um, that's really important. Again, that's still just related to advertising. We can tell people where the most likely place they're gonna be successful if they open a new shop. Or we can help with local authority town planning and go, "That bus route's not gonna work this way. It's gonna be best if you go that way," or, "You're building a new housing development. Don't just choose this spot because that farmer's willing to sell a field. Actually, the thing that might take a bit longer over the next 10 years will be far more valuable in 50 years' time." Those are the conversations we wanna start having. Um, if I'm quite honest, we're not set up for that yet.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I've told the team to start having conversations if they can, but we don't have a sales team that's, you know, expert in town planning. But we have the platform that can open up those conversations, and I think if the brands are open to talking to us about it, with no commercial benefit to us or, or them, just to have the conversations, it helps us get better. Hopefully, they get something out of it. Uh, and that's what I'm really excited about in the future. I love advertising, I love media, but the world is gonna change pretty r- pretty quickly. Um, and I think that business intelligence is going to become even more valuable to people as, as time goes on.
Speaker 1: I think it's a, a great, um, evolution of, of, of your business, you know, like, like your career has been, I suppose, in a sense. The, um... So, you know, taking the, the kind of example of the, the kind of the report you created, um, for the CEO with all those 40 data points-
Speaker 2: Yes. Understand the various-
Speaker 1: Like, give me a sense of kind of what Mobsta would do with that now. Um, so I can see the, I can see the f- the future, right, in terms of the addressable market suddenly just goes exponential-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ... which is very exciting. We can talk more about that in a minute. But, um, tell me about what you would, what you... You know, you said like when the brief comes in three months.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So-
Speaker 1: What does that look like? You know.
Speaker 2: So, it might be how to, um, help a retailer, um, increase basket size or are they advertising the wrong message to areas where, um, the average baske-basket size is £12, which is people dropping in after work compared to u- a trolley worth of £200. Um, you can't just serve the same message to all of those people. Um, and what we see is that street by street it changes. Um, you might have, uh, an A road of a high street, and there'll be one retailer here and one retailer here that offer the same thing. People can be really, really stuck on this one if they live north of the road compared to this one if they're south of the road. Um, and they need different messages.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And yes, you can try and drag customers from this one down to this one. Um, but is there a better way-
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: ... than just stealing share from here? Is there a better way to increase their share in, in, in this one here? And it, it literally is down to that street level. Um, there's no need to be buying that on a localized basis like this panel. You can buy it on a national basis, um, but just activate it in a very, very com- you know, completely dynamic, completely localized, not just a location, time of day, um, you know, ex- down to the minute if you want to, um, based on where we think people are likely to be. Um, so it's, it's kinda trying to help the brands work out,-
Speaker 1: We're also going outside his view online-
Speaker 2: ...um, just how to activate and use that data to the best of the ability with lots of test and learn. Um, I think that's something we've changed in the last year. We used to be quite risk averse. Uh, and now, a lot of the time, we're like, "Let's just try it." Like, if 10 things fail but one thing works, but 10 things fail fast, then we've got to that one thing quicker. Um, and that compared to a year ago where we were like, "Let's wait three or four months." And, uh, I was talking to, uh, David Graham, our COO, a couple of weeks ago, and he came off a call and he was like, "I think, I think we may have found a new media channel"- Inadvertently. Uh, I don't think they realize it's a new media channel, but I think this could, this could become something quite big in the industry." And he was like, "Maybe six months to a year." And I was like, "Why? Let's just do it now. Let's have the conversation next week-
Speaker 1: Yep
Speaker 2: ... we'll find a client-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ....we'll run it for free. I don't ca-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ...like just get a case study and let's do a proof of concept and see if it works because if it does then it could be something amazing. Um, those are the conversations -
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ..I wanna have with brands. Um, not again, not for commercial benefit. I think it comes back to our B Corp ethos. Um, we're not in it for fast growth and to, to maximize profit you know, w-we-- everything we do puts people on planet first. We try and look after the team incredibly sustainable. We really mean it. Um, so that gives you a bit of freedom to just test things out without panicking about the commercials every time and having to maximize every deal. Because if we get this case study right, uh, I think we could be sitting here this time next year going, "Fuck, we're onto something big." Um, and I wish I could say more right now, but I... 'Cause gotta tease that out.
Speaker 1: Tremendously. Yeah. Um, you, you deliberately t-... Ah, it's, uh, You're trying to get me to invite you back.
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker 1: It's kind of, uh, That's the strategy here. Um, and, and so like, just so I'm really g-understanding it, so like when you, when you then d-you know, just describe what you deliver back to the client, what... How does that kind of manifest itself-
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 1: …in terms of what are the actual kind of deliverables outcomes from what you do as in-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: ….do you actually did-- Do you do the media strategy,-
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: …..the media planning, the creative?-
Speaker 2: So it-
Speaker 1: Like how far do you go?
Speaker 2: It might be that we manage the reach frequency on um, delivering outdoor campaigns in the morning, uh, mobile video in the afternoon, um-
Speaker 1: Got it
Speaker 2: ……digital audio on the commute, um, connected TV in the evening.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Um, so we, uh, we activate across all complete omni-channel.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And we can do it either individually, you know budget wise or we can just optimize towards the whole thing and go, well today outdoors not gonna perform for you so we'll just pull that down, but we'll whack up CTV because actually it's Sunday afternoon and people aren't-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ….out and about as much. They're at home, they're watching whatever they're watching on T-
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah
Speaker 2: You can start to sort of optimize-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ….a campaign ar-around that. Um-
Speaker 1: Uh, and what's the business model? Like what's the commercial model? How do you, how do you, how do you charge built for that?
Speaker 2: So, uh, we just charge a CPM.
Speaker 1: Yup
Speaker 2: That's the client. Um, we are looking at changing the business model. If people don't want to activate, but they want access to the Business Insights and the business intelligence.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, and we're also looking for ways where we can just add a CPM so when they activate themselves we can just add our targeting onto it, um, just to help them te-test to learn. And sometimes it might not work for someone. Um, we-we're really confident in it. Um, but i -- like I said earlier, it--if we're not doing better out business intelligence by than advertising in five years, then I shouldn't be in a job. That's my plan anyway.
Speaker 1: I, I think that's, uh, very humble of you but I think that's great way to-
Speaker 2: But first I need to figure out how to actually charge for it.
Speaker 1: Well, I th- I think maybe people listening to this and I'm gonna have a conversation with you afterwards 'cause I think it's fascinating. I think that shift that a lot of agencies and, uh, are, are going through right now in terms of what is our, what is our model? What is our future model? You know, I think, I think that's a, that's been a common conversation-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 1: …I think, you know, this year particularly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, um, you know cross, across every type of kind of, um, y-you know, um business in this ecosystem area.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thi-
Speaker 1: Is it, is it value based? Is it outcome based? Is it, you know unit, unit...? Like there's a lot of conversation going on at the moment.
Speaker 2: And I think just being open. I know I keep talking about horizons and possibilities, but if you question whether something is tradition or whether it's something we could do, if you question that every time, not that there's anything wrong with tradition, I hate tradition, but there's nothing wrong with it and it makes people feel comfortable. But that's not a reason to always do something. And the u-the only way we've moved forward as a company is by everyone coming to us with ideas internally and going, "Why don't we do things this way?" And you go, "I, I dunno, we've always done it that way. Let's just scrap that. Let's just try something else."
Speaker 1: Had a very similar conversation though during the week and it's, it's, I think it's, it's, it's, you know, the, the, the, the tools, the methods, you know the channels change but the outcome is still the same, right? It's just tha-that's the, that's the thing we have to remind people of and-
Speaker 2: An audience is still the same.
Speaker 1: They're still exactly right.
Speaker 2: They're still humans and we can, we can try and predict 'em as much as possible, but ultimately people are, you know led by their emotions and their affinity towards brands and they didn't might not realize it, eh, but you just have to be able to tap into those moments and do the best you can to get in front of them when they're likely to feel about that. We will never say, "We will reach this one person at this particular time and they will buy your product," because we can't do that. And its, it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: No longer exists.
Speaker 2: Just that doesn't, doesn't exist. But people are predictable in large numbers. One thing I always go back to is when I worked at Electoral Commission, uh, we used to look at the Google Analytics which shows how o-old, old long ago this was. But um, we would look at voter registration by day and you would think that there was no natural, uh rhythm in that maybe increases towards an election comes down again. One day I notice over the last three years, you know you're, you're talking about maybe1000,2000 people registering to vote every day. The trend over the years was almost identical within40 or50 people. So when you take a population of fortyone million voters, the numbers of people that are registering to vote on each date really, really was very, very similar. And that's when I was like fir-the first thing made me go, ah well actually there's prediction here. But you don't know at what stage in people's lives they are or you don't know what they're thinking, how they, how they love, how they learn, how they want to be and what they aspire to be. That's what makes us all individual. And uh yeah, like I say, we can try and get in front of people in the right moment um And just put a brand in the best position to, to reach these
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you two questions, um, 'cause we are near leading the end of this, this conversation. I wish it was longer in some ways. Um, the first one is-
Speaker 2: Sort of
Speaker 1: ...um, you mentioned anxiety.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What keeps you up at night?
Speaker 2: Um, what keeps me up at night? Um-
Speaker 1: Or at 3:00 in the morning, whatever you wanna use, right?
Speaker 2: Not much anymore.
Speaker 1: Great.
Speaker 2: I think I've done a lot of self discovery over the last-
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: ...uh, last few years. Um, and I've learned to be far more in the moment when I'm at home not panic about things because- Retailers changing ....what I've learnt over the years is that when I get in those moments and I'm anxious and I'm panicking and/or having a panic attack, whatever, it always ends out o- o- okay. It's always better in the morning or it's always better in the afternoon, whenever it is. Um, and if you learn to ride those waves, you can kind of deal with it. Um, so what keeps me up in the mor- i- in, in the night it's probably my brain whirring thinking about ideas.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: At this time last year I woke up at 3:00 in the morning couldn't really sleep read an article about publishers decreasing in their numbers because of Gemini.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: And I was like oh God And I got up and I ended up spending eight days locked in a study uh just exploring this and came out with paper internally and that set our agenda for the next year which was to start looking at what we call persuasion architecture Which is around how GPCA agent or chat agents are going to start helping people understand brands and choose brands but through the user's eyes rather than through what a brand thinks they usually want So I often wake up in the night and just go ah I've got this idea and I just want to talk someone about it Uh so I just sit there and write and and that's what keeps me up at night which is far nicer than worrying about a call the next day But I used to worry
Speaker 1: I love that Absolutely Love it What great answer And the last one I suppose If you could kinda go back to Matt and say I don't know what twenty five years ago Whatever it was Right What's the one piece of advice you'd give him?
Speaker 2: It's all gonna be okay There were times when I really Really didn't think it was going to be OK I did a podcast three or four months ago about anxiety and talked about really dark times The one thing I said it's going to be ok and just make sure you talk to people and be open about it with people Don't keep it in Just keep plugging on Talk would have liked to have started therapy earlier I think That would have helped me get to where I am now a lot quicker Yeah I've often thought about what I'd say to myself It would You got this It's going to be Ok
Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time Cheers Thank you pleasure thank very Well thanks being on the business watching Very